World: r3wp

This GUI and GLASS are also terribly slow

I have to leave, now
Anyway, I wish you a fruitful conference.
bye

Thanks for the help

Mine is here - http://xidys.com/pekr/rebol/demo.r3

not much time to fix everything anyway. There's two fixes for Doc 
style but generally - this gui is incompatible to Carl's one in many 
aspects ....

Does not work with A111. Carl should really not do rushed releases, 
if he has no time to push R3 further forward!

I have to say, I'm surprised that you endured this for weeks

well, not sure I understand the word "endured" correctly, but anyway 
- I wanted to become more familiar with the GUI, published some tickets, 
learned a lot, yet I am far from being a good coder. I also only 
have few hours a week to experiment. I initially thought it is going 
to be about changine few things here or there, but it seems to be 
more complicated.

I believe the released GUI is out of sync with A111. The GUI works 
here.

I think we're talking different definitions of "works" here

One or two years ago, Carl's GUI was demonstrable. This one isn't

Well, hopefully the next release will be more stable.

Pekr, we are by and large at the same point. Your version is compatible 
with the a111 version that I compiled, except for a certain number 
of tests, like mine. Did your version work with the a110 of RMA for 
the drawing test ?
Kaj, I agree, Carl's version was demonstrable.

Some basic functions like request or alert, and styles like doc are 
still bugged in r3-gui.r3

Some basic functions like request or alert

 - because they are an entirely separate scheme that is not yet implemented. 
 Carl's version of these were unorganized and lacking.

jocko - you can fix Doc style - look at following ticket  - http://curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=1850&cursor=10

pekr - thanks, I will do it when I have time.

I have put a new version of test-demo, where the status of what is 
working and what is not is mentioned, and the crashing actions and 
faces are disabled. Pekr, I have not yet integrated your fix for 
the doc style ... later
http://www.colineau.fr/rebol/downloads/tests-R3Gui.zip

pekr - I see that you have put many other contributions on r3-gui 
bugs

well, some of tickets are not clearly a bugs, but misconceptions 
... which most probably might get dismissed because of my incorrect 
understanding of the topic. But I wanted to have it "recorded". I 
just don't know, if RMA works with those tickets, as e.g. Doc style 
fix is not yet commented. I will wait for new release and we will 
see. Hopefully together we might get the demo working. I expect the 
biggest problem being in the area where new box model is involved 
... we will see ...

I agree with you. The point is, as there is not enough documentation, 
we may "translate" incorrectly the code. Anyway, I would be pleased 
to contribute with you to make this demo work, as I feel it very 
"sexy" and representative of the potential of the gui. Of course, 
RMA is welcome to do on their side this kind of demo, showing the 
various functionalities of r3-gui

Guys, I don't know how often I have to repeat it:


1. we get basic concepts implemented. All these basics are seperated 
as much as possible. That's why it will be totally incompatible to 
Carl's GUI. And, we don't try to be compatible. Our goal is to have 
an enterprise enabled GUI framework.


2. To do step 1, we just pick 1-2 styles, and enhance and change 
them exactly to just work with the concepts from 1. And, please see 
the plural in "concepts". We are doing step 1 & 2 by concept.


3. If this stabelized, we take the next style and adopt it. This 
might lead to some changes in 1. which than have to be carried forward 
again.

4. Then either next style or next concept.

It's quite simple. The GUI is not functioning in general purpose. 
Anyone expecting this is just pure wrong... you have to wait or help. 
And the concepts and styles we care are priorized by what we need.

What we're observing is a regression over years

I wasn't expecting functionality, but I was expecting demonstrability

Well, RMA doesn't work for years on R3-GUI.

It's been a year now

The other R3-GUI stuff is nothing I take seriously into account for 
now.

Yes, but not full-time. As we first did some tests, to proof if we 
can invest into the R3 line.

It's one of the base rules of software engineering to keep complex 
systems in a working state

The reset of R3 development was already a flagrant violation, the 
results of which we're dealing with now

It works for us for those things we focus on. Of course, if you try 
to do other things it won't most likely not.

I agree, that's why we bite the bullet and invest a lot of money 
into the development of a useable GUI framework. It's a hell lot 
of work as we mostly started from scratch, and need to fight on the 
c-level as well.

But it doesn't work. And you'll have great trouble getting back to 
a working state, with so many issues interfering. This alone explains 
the long time spans

Well, you seems to know more than me than. Anyway, yes, than that's 
the case.

I would hope not

Maybe it would have been better to have kept Carl's GUI as something 
that could have been used warts and all, .. and the GUI team continue 
to work on their alternate GUI?  Would that have been possible?

That means more work, so it would have to be handled by people other 
than Carl or RM Asset.

Carl's GUI is not working because of internal changes like moving 
graphics to extensions module (using commands)

Graham, I guess, that you realize, that the original Carl's GUI is:

*kept and available

*maintained, the RMA is just the continuation of Carl's GUI, correcting/improving 
things that have been found necessary to correct

What exactly are you asking for, then?

Everyone crying for Carl's GUI should use LOAD-GUI function in Carl's 
builds of R3 alpha (the builds having View capabilities, not the 
console-only ones, as Kaj creatively tried)

Ladislav - my guess is, that what  Graham had in mind is the demo, 
load-gui, etc. As we understood, demo was not a priority for RMA 
...

if my understanding is correct, load-gui in RMA's releases loads 
RMA's GUI?

yes

If something does not work, it is just because what you call "Carl's 
GUI" is the old version, while the newer version of the code are 
(somewhat improperly) called "RMA GUI". Nevertheless, everybody crying 
for it, can easily take it and update everything that he sees fit.

The demo is still a good case for catching obvious bugs, so even 
if it doesn't work in the short term, due to focusing on a few specific 
styles, we get a lot of good feedback on it.

The "show-native" is another case of Kaj's reinventing the wheel. 
It has been corrected almost a month ago (the correction was even 
posted by me above), wondering where Kaj is getting his %r3-gui.r3 
file?

Just making few notes:

1. we don't push anyone to use/accept R3GUI from RMA


2. anyone who is missing "Carl's GUI" can download it at http://www.rebol.com/r3/gui.r
and happily use and enhance it. (It really works much better than 
RMA version...especially with A111 :-))


3. Having 'good looking' demo doesn't mean anything when the system 
cannot be used in real application. (That was the first thing we 
realized when checking the "Carl's GUI" and that's why we continued 
to improve our own version based on Carl's design)

4. It has been said by defferent RMA-members:

-this project is still in 'alpha', we are working frequently on it 
to be better
-we are publishing/sharing our work-in-progress code
-we invite any good contribution to the wip code

So far the major reaction to our effort is none,negative or contra-productive 
here even from some people who have experiences with mangement of 
larger projects(*sigh*). I don't understand why.

This has of course nothing to do with constructive critics which 
we hear, discuss and think about every useful comment (even if it 
is not accepted in the end). Unfortunately we could count 'useful 
comments' in this group on fingers on both hands max.


5. even with all the negative energy that is 'pumped' on us from 
Rebol3 we will continue with releasing our work and inform people 
here about the progress etc.

So to follow point 5. above here is some update:


The next public release will be postponed to the end of the next 
week (current estimation). As we need to do some 'major' changes 
to the resizing concept. We need to add more flexibility to the system 
internals to be able implement proper column/row resizing (also used 
for dividers)  etc.


Our current internal version have lot of improvements but it will 
be better to wait a bit to not confuse developers with 'obsolete 
methods' that will be changed in the planned major update.


We are also preparing much more documentation to make things easier 
to understand.

Cyphre - just some friendly opinion exchange, hopefully you will 
be able to understand my explanations (which don't necessarily represent 
my exact point of view):


- most ppl here are well aware of the fact, that RMA is a business 
entity, and hence has absolute right to do what makes sense for its 
business. The trick is, that in the end, it does not work for ppl, 
I will tell why later.


- The point above is even more difficult to understand, as RMA is 
offering its work for free, yet ppl still complain to something (including 
me of course)


- What might have failed is, that ppl might think, that accepting 
SCRUM method will mean, that we have finally found a viable model 
for  general R3 development, which will allow Carl to stay available 
 to small agile team of developers, isolated from the noise.


- Ppl were expecting GUI to probably appear in 2-3 month period. 
Althought Carl's GUI worked mostly on the surface, it was something 
ppl could experience. RMA's aproach is much broader aproach to usability 
and architecture. But - that resulted into refusal to provide usable 
demo. There was some attempt to provide style browser, but it was 
highly unusable to attract ppl.


- RMA seems not to understand (or it is not its priority) the importance 
of visuals. You surely remember the "design sells" claims, which 
are know for ages. Do you remember your Rebcon AGG demo? So much 
joy, so much applause. The current look of the GUI and its metrics 
just ruined the "hmm, nice" first look experience, and for no apparent 
reason, then constantly repeating "the skin will be done later". 
If so, it should not have been changed in the first place. (After 
porting the demo, my next area to play with is to try to play with 
material system, etc., and box-model style metrics)


- Ppl are well aware, that RMA is mostly on its own, and that even 
SCRUM methog did not work in regards to keep Carl attracted to such 
method in the long run. We are now facing the worst ever period of 
R3 development, where Carl apparently has some other projects, and 
R3 is almost stalled. Ppl are clever enough to realise, that we are 
being fed with some mid-time blogs, which should keep us distrated 
from the facts (huh, rebol file suffix importance anyone?), and we 
are also facing rushed releases as A111 is, and 2.7.8. was. You are 
free to not agree, but that is how I personally feel about the situation 
towards the RT. In the past I would probably write some letter to 
Carl, but I am at the point where I think, that RT is effectively 
burrying R3 under month by month. So - Carl is not able to find free 
time to continue with R3 development on a regular basis, and noone 
is denying his right to personal life, but - the fact is, that R3 
situation is at least - worrying. We wait for the beta plan for more 
than 4 months! If someone does not have time to even think how to 
proceed, then it is probably time to close the shop ... or open-source 
... but that will not happen. So - welcome the Amiga fate ... 


- And before someone else adds it, I will add it myself, as I believe 
I have my points right :-) Amen! Could I be wrong? Of course I could. 
You can easily state - hey, the situation is not like that, we know 
Carl works on this or that. Well - RMA knows, but that's it - the 
rest of the community is kept in information embargo from Carl. And 
that is difficult to deal with for many of us, who really like REBOL, 
and would like to see some coordinated development and the light 
in the end of the tunel once again ....

And now also - back to point 5, away from politics :-)


- New resizing model. Will API change too? Or is is just internal 
change, so I don't need to care about it, apart from knowing, that 
in some cases, resizing model will be more efficient?


- Is RMA building any commercial app using R3 GUI right now? Because 
I still might miss something, but style-wise I find it difficult 
to imagine, how it could be used. (Tables, lists, tree, area, tabs 
missing or buggy?)