World: r3wp

Merry Rebmas!    =^.^=

Merry Christmas

*** Buon Natale a tutti ***

Joyeux Noël !

A Blessed Christmas Season to all and may epiphanies enrich your 
endeavers.

Fröhliche Weihnachten

Is there a single place somewhere where we have all put a simple 
clear description of what all is out there for people form Rebol?


Ideally it would be somewhere where people could rank or comment 
on each submission.  That these are products and not just hacks. 
 The more unique rankings would push the product up in a TOC.


But for example:


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
- - - 


Product: AltME (Alternative Messaging Environment) 

Category: Communications


1 Sentence:  AltME is a secure private instant messaging system that 
you control.


1 Paragraph: AltME is for people who need to work together on a common 
project or goal. AltME offers secure, encrypted messaging and sharing 
of information between groups of 2 or more people -- perfect for 
companies, non-profit organizations, government institutions, schools, 
clubs, family, friends, or any group of people who need to work or 
communicate in a coordinated fashion.

Platforms, Windows, Linux

Avg Rating: ***** (read comments)


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
- - -

the only one is RT's products page ...

http://www.rebol.net/solutions.html

guys - screenshots!!! Screenshots!! I know myself - if I can't find 
tour or screenshot with any product I try to investigate, I somehow 
consciously start to give it a big minus :-)

I did some homework in the past - nice gallery here :-) http://www.xidys.com/rebol-view/image1.jpg
thru image45.jpg iirc :-) They tell nothing separately, but good 
for a nostalgy :-)

Agreed.

I don't consider something "alive" unless people can comment on it, 
rank it.  It needs to follow the format of Downloads.com for example.

I think there's some flaw with download.com ... about a zillion people 
download something, and only a few comment.

Needs to be some way to reward those who provide feedback.

Sorry, I mean tthe format of the page.

Today I got reply from Thom Holwerda from OSNews .... simply put 
- OSNews is interested in Rebol news and it is fully upon us to submit 
some product releases etc. Could be good match for View 1.3.2 (but 
it is old news now, so we should wait for update), Qtask presentation 
etc., or if someone is willing, to even write rebol related article 
...

Qtask is not ready to be talked about until it goes Beta.

So I guess the answer to "Is there a single place somewhere where 
we have all put a simple clear description of what all is out there 
for people form Rebol?" is no...

Shame.

I suspect that the library could fufill this function.  Up to Sunanda 
and his team.

Yeah, I think just a few little tricks and this would be great.

Trvor Gosbell does an excellent job of maintaining a comprehensive 
set of REBOL resources over at DMOZ:
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/REBOL/
Google keeps a (slightly out of date but easier to search) mirror

http://www.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/REBOL/?il=1

I am not sure, rebol.org does it, I have mixture feelings about it 
...

I think what we are talking about is a way to vote/rate rebol resources.

DMOZ is a closer.

dmoz?

DMOZ: the ODP -- see link in my post above.

Let me state - few weeks ago (actually two months), I started to 
write one document in make-doc format, but did not finish it. It 
was kind of brainstorming about current situation:

- simply put - what to do to promote Rebol?


I started with the fact, that e.g. OSNews.com reports every little 
bit of new version of xy-language related product, while my news 
item about View 1.3 did not get it to their news. New info is, that 
I contacted Tom Holwerda and he told me OSNews does not have any 
problem with Rebol news, and that it is upon us to submit the news. 
I thought that at least for main product releases as View 1.3.x we 
could do it. Of course it would REALLY help, if RT would be a bit 
more sharing about the schedule, because simply sometimes a bit of 
hype does not hurt, so we could attract ppl to new Rebcode, to hopefully 
coming rich-text, faster blitting etc., not to mention Rebservices 
as a separate article. But although rebservices were released, I 
sadly feel about it much worse than I feel about old Rugby! It just 
feels like RT would drop the ball to the community and nothing is 
happening in this field anymore. So actually, what is RT working 
on right now? There should be some communication channel, so that 
us - rebollers would be informed enough to participate in chats following 
the news articles. We have QA channel here, but most often news are 
- "we plan", "soon", and that is not simply acceptable to feel informed. 
So it is from devcon's time, that we "soon" will know, what is the 
plan for VID, not to menthion real implementation schedule - that 
does not work!

Information source scattering:

Now let me state - Rebol docs improved! Kudoz to RT and those who 
helped them to bring View and new draw docs to the light of the day! 
Last week I was looking into several other languages, and I have 
to say, that we can't say, there is not enough docs for Rebol. I 
now feel rather safe about that. But - let's look into their organisation 
...

I really don't feel comfortable about it. Resource of most lays at 
rebol.com. Just go thru them - there are docs, which are pretty old, 
and new ones are NOT distinguished properly. There is even old draw 
doc, in which there is reference to even older doc (actually I can 
see it was improved). The basic doc for Core is Core 2.3 and then 
follow Core changes. Imo it needs to be changed. The old Core docs 
were good, function reference is good, but it should cover latest 
releases.

I view that the only way any company can be reviewed is if it is 
not done by the company, but rather by user feedback.  That is what 
makes everything "alive."

sorry that I did not finish my ideas, was interrupted by few "New 
Year"'s phones :-)

Other sources of rebol related info are - wikis. I am sorry to say 
that, maybe it is only me, but psychologically, it takes xy secs, 
till I start to orientiate myself on those sites. Imo really ergonomicall 
bad design - that is imo reason why it did not take off. And I also 
miss those resources to be linked from other resources ...

rebol.org - mixed feelings too. Maybe it is also based upon my historical 
feelings about the site. Now I can find there is "Other REBOL links" 
section, so I take it back - it refers to other sources. Because 
- it is nice it does ML back-up, but ML is not primary source of 
docs ...

rebdocproj - mixed feelings too. rebolfrance.org - good number of 
articles, sadly in french only ....

I have to say, that currently my main rebol site I visit is - rebol.net. 
Maybe it is because of Carl's blog plus RAMBO, but it also points 
to other resources, docs, etc., so I feel comfortable enough about 
it ...

I have to say, I probably prefer dedicated portals! The have their 
own logic, but if done good, they feel consistent. Following is really 
bad - http://www.compkarori.com/vanilla/display/rebol-main

what is content of the site, should be logically portal's left column. 
Don't get me wrong, but what is actually left column of the site 
is - garbage - who cares about wiki? Wiki is not end-point there, 
rebol is, so it should not infect site design ....

http://www.rebolforces.comis still better design for me ...

Now - I know our point of views can vary, but that is simply how 
I feel about it. As I said in the beginning - we have nice info about 
REBOL already, I am just not sure, that beginner is able to easily 
find all good sources. Rebol sites ring? Dunno. Any suggestions about 
what to do about it?

And guys, once again, please, if possible - screenshots :-) Screenshots 
sell! Look at http://www.rebolforces.com/- images imediatelly attract 
my attention - this can be done with rebol View, really? Nice ....

oh, and I forgot one aspect - View based apps! Two weeks ago I suggeste 
rebol word browser plus Roam to be put into Docs section of ViewTop 
section. Too good apps to be missed by those looking for good source 
of info. Look at rebol word browser - nice apps, superior to web. 
Now imagine it running as a plug-in somewhere on RT's site. That 
is how live docs look, it would allow for examples to be executed 
and you could even allow area with script source, so users could 
do small changes and see how they are reflected in the result. Just 
not sure about security :-)

Pekr: "ML is not primary source of docs ..."  Absolutely true, and 
that's how it should be. But the ML can be a starting point for someone 
trying to research a topic or unearth an obscure snippet of information.....Which 
is why REBOL.org indexes the ML in lots of different ways: to make 
it easy to find stuff hidden in 43 000 messages.

If you haven't already, try playing with the topic index:
http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-topic-index.r

It's work-in-progress so it's incomplete, but it can be the fastest 
way to some primary information.

And, while you are critiquing the Library, check out the Articles 
section.
http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/art-index.r
It's often overlooked, and frankly quite bare of content.

But it is a central place to publish articles. And it accepts them 
in most common REBOL mark-up languages (MakeDoc variants, eText. 
ASCII etc) so no additional learning curve needed.

Sunanda - that is one particular source of info - my point was not 
to point at one particular site and its weakness/advantage, but to 
provide list of various types of rebol related info sources and to 
discuss possible ways of how to better consolidate those various 
sources ...

We certainly need better ways of navigating through the various REBOL 
resources....All sorts of goodies exist that many newcomers may never 
find.

I'm not convinced though that consolidating sources is the only way 
to go. Making better use of the existing channels is another -- and 
one that anyone can get started on today.

For example, how many developers have put up a personal page at REBOL.org 
to introduce and/or promote their work?  Here's one:

http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/lmp-display.r?user-name=gchiu

Happy New Year to everyone!

The Gripe:


Go here www.Rebol.org, then go here: http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/, 
then here: http://java.sun.com/, hell even go here, http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/, 
now go back to www.Rebol.com


Even if you don't know what the language is or does, do you want 
to go to Rebol.org?  The main page looks like the last page in the 
basement of a website.  Almost like an "error page"

O There is no single location for all Rebol information.

O Rebol.net, Rebol.com, and Rebol.org are spread out and run by RT. 
O There is no pizzas!
O I don't "feel" community when I visit these sites.


I know I'm not talking to my audience when I say; "think of this 
like a night club" but this is what this is all about.  People want 
to "be where the fun is happening."  Even programmers.

My Suggestion:

O We need a site controlled by the developers.

O We need a forum where people can bitch and meet each other, and 
feel welcome.

O The site needs to have a consistent dynamic attractive template.

O The site needs to be a clearing house for all other sites.  Teach 
and directing people to all the resources.

O The site needs to paint a picture as opposed to describe everything 
with a thousand words.

What is entailed:


O Start a new site, I would propose "RebolCentral.com"  I'm willing 
to pay for it, but I don't want to be in charge of it, I suggest 
we make it a committee.


O The main page should cover every topic and reason anyone would 
come to the site.  This means we support every country and other 
site.  The idea here is a clearing house of centralized information. 


O News: The site needs to gather news worthy information and post 
that at the top.  The site is not alive unless people have a way 
to post their information.  This means that there needs to be at 
least one editor, if not several that share the task.  Every time 
a product is updated, the new features are mentioned.  When Carl 
updates his blog, it gets a single sentence directing people there, 
unless it is news of a release of something.  Etc.


O Product Reviews:   This is key.  Products need to be rated, reviewed, 
categorized, voted on.

O Video Archive: All the videos of all the talks ever given   


O Tutorials:  there are a lot of tutorials out there, but which are 
best?  We need to review the tutorials, rate them by Beginner, Intermediate, 
Advanced.  


O Forum: Start with major topics, and then break it down.  The forum 
needs to direct people to other countries, or support the other countries 
right in the forum.  Great simple forum: http://discussion.treocentral.com/index.php?styleid=1


O Respect the real estate.  The #1 mistake people make is treating 
their websites like just pages.  This is just like real estate, location 
location location.  We need to place the content based on where people 
are going.  So you build the basic site, watch it for a couple of 
weeks, then shift things around based on where people are actually 
going. 


O More art, more photos, more community.   It needs to feel inviting: 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/events/pdc/

Stone soup:


I will pay for, host, and supply a fast linux system (w/archive). 
 

I will help design the templates, and provide (and buy if needed) 
great art for the site.

I will not run the site, nor control the content, but I expect there 
to be in place all the items outlined above, set up in a manner that 
it a) runs itself, b) puts the power in the hands of the developers.

This whole site should be able to be pulled together with off the 
shelf parts.   This site does NOT need to be written in Rebol, it 
needs to function.  If each person just did a very little, a team 
of 10 or so people could bring this alive with just an hour or so 
a month once the set up is done.