World: r3wp

I view that the only way any company can be reviewed is if it is 
not done by the company, but rather by user feedback.  That is what 
makes everything "alive."

sorry that I did not finish my ideas, was interrupted by few "New 
Year"'s phones :-)

Other sources of rebol related info are - wikis. I am sorry to say 
that, maybe it is only me, but psychologically, it takes xy secs, 
till I start to orientiate myself on those sites. Imo really ergonomicall 
bad design - that is imo reason why it did not take off. And I also 
miss those resources to be linked from other resources ...

rebol.org - mixed feelings too. Maybe it is also based upon my historical 
feelings about the site. Now I can find there is "Other REBOL links" 
section, so I take it back - it refers to other sources. Because 
- it is nice it does ML back-up, but ML is not primary source of 
docs ...

rebdocproj - mixed feelings too. rebolfrance.org - good number of 
articles, sadly in french only ....

I have to say, that currently my main rebol site I visit is - rebol.net. 
Maybe it is because of Carl's blog plus RAMBO, but it also points 
to other resources, docs, etc., so I feel comfortable enough about 
it ...

I have to say, I probably prefer dedicated portals! The have their 
own logic, but if done good, they feel consistent. Following is really 
bad - http://www.compkarori.com/vanilla/display/rebol-main

what is content of the site, should be logically portal's left column. 
Don't get me wrong, but what is actually left column of the site 
is - garbage - who cares about wiki? Wiki is not end-point there, 
rebol is, so it should not infect site design ....

http://www.rebolforces.comis still better design for me ...

Now - I know our point of views can vary, but that is simply how 
I feel about it. As I said in the beginning - we have nice info about 
REBOL already, I am just not sure, that beginner is able to easily 
find all good sources. Rebol sites ring? Dunno. Any suggestions about 
what to do about it?

And guys, once again, please, if possible - screenshots :-) Screenshots 
sell! Look at http://www.rebolforces.com/- images imediatelly attract 
my attention - this can be done with rebol View, really? Nice ....

oh, and I forgot one aspect - View based apps! Two weeks ago I suggeste 
rebol word browser plus Roam to be put into Docs section of ViewTop 
section. Too good apps to be missed by those looking for good source 
of info. Look at rebol word browser - nice apps, superior to web. 
Now imagine it running as a plug-in somewhere on RT's site. That 
is how live docs look, it would allow for examples to be executed 
and you could even allow area with script source, so users could 
do small changes and see how they are reflected in the result. Just 
not sure about security :-)

Pekr: "ML is not primary source of docs ..."  Absolutely true, and 
that's how it should be. But the ML can be a starting point for someone 
trying to research a topic or unearth an obscure snippet of information.....Which 
is why REBOL.org indexes the ML in lots of different ways: to make 
it easy to find stuff hidden in 43 000 messages.

If you haven't already, try playing with the topic index:
http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/ml-topic-index.r

It's work-in-progress so it's incomplete, but it can be the fastest 
way to some primary information.

And, while you are critiquing the Library, check out the Articles 
section.
http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/art-index.r
It's often overlooked, and frankly quite bare of content.

But it is a central place to publish articles. And it accepts them 
in most common REBOL mark-up languages (MakeDoc variants, eText. 
ASCII etc) so no additional learning curve needed.

Sunanda - that is one particular source of info - my point was not 
to point at one particular site and its weakness/advantage, but to 
provide list of various types of rebol related info sources and to 
discuss possible ways of how to better consolidate those various 
sources ...

We certainly need better ways of navigating through the various REBOL 
resources....All sorts of goodies exist that many newcomers may never 
find.

I'm not convinced though that consolidating sources is the only way 
to go. Making better use of the existing channels is another -- and 
one that anyone can get started on today.

For example, how many developers have put up a personal page at REBOL.org 
to introduce and/or promote their work?  Here's one:

http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/lmp-display.r?user-name=gchiu

Happy New Year to everyone!

The Gripe:


Go here www.Rebol.org, then go here: http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/, 
then here: http://java.sun.com/, hell even go here, http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/, 
now go back to www.Rebol.com


Even if you don't know what the language is or does, do you want 
to go to Rebol.org?  The main page looks like the last page in the 
basement of a website.  Almost like an "error page"

O There is no single location for all Rebol information.

O Rebol.net, Rebol.com, and Rebol.org are spread out and run by RT. 
O There is no pizzas!
O I don't "feel" community when I visit these sites.


I know I'm not talking to my audience when I say; "think of this 
like a night club" but this is what this is all about.  People want 
to "be where the fun is happening."  Even programmers.

My Suggestion:

O We need a site controlled by the developers.

O We need a forum where people can bitch and meet each other, and 
feel welcome.

O The site needs to have a consistent dynamic attractive template.

O The site needs to be a clearing house for all other sites.  Teach 
and directing people to all the resources.

O The site needs to paint a picture as opposed to describe everything 
with a thousand words.

What is entailed:


O Start a new site, I would propose "RebolCentral.com"  I'm willing 
to pay for it, but I don't want to be in charge of it, I suggest 
we make it a committee.


O The main page should cover every topic and reason anyone would 
come to the site.  This means we support every country and other 
site.  The idea here is a clearing house of centralized information. 


O News: The site needs to gather news worthy information and post 
that at the top.  The site is not alive unless people have a way 
to post their information.  This means that there needs to be at 
least one editor, if not several that share the task.  Every time 
a product is updated, the new features are mentioned.  When Carl 
updates his blog, it gets a single sentence directing people there, 
unless it is news of a release of something.  Etc.


O Product Reviews:   This is key.  Products need to be rated, reviewed, 
categorized, voted on.

O Video Archive: All the videos of all the talks ever given   


O Tutorials:  there are a lot of tutorials out there, but which are 
best?  We need to review the tutorials, rate them by Beginner, Intermediate, 
Advanced.  


O Forum: Start with major topics, and then break it down.  The forum 
needs to direct people to other countries, or support the other countries 
right in the forum.  Great simple forum: http://discussion.treocentral.com/index.php?styleid=1


O Respect the real estate.  The #1 mistake people make is treating 
their websites like just pages.  This is just like real estate, location 
location location.  We need to place the content based on where people 
are going.  So you build the basic site, watch it for a couple of 
weeks, then shift things around based on where people are actually 
going. 


O More art, more photos, more community.   It needs to feel inviting: 
http://msdn.microsoft.com/events/pdc/

Stone soup:


I will pay for, host, and supply a fast linux system (w/archive). 
 

I will help design the templates, and provide (and buy if needed) 
great art for the site.

I will not run the site, nor control the content, but I expect there 
to be in place all the items outlined above, set up in a manner that 
it a) runs itself, b) puts the power in the hands of the developers.

This whole site should be able to be pulled together with off the 
shelf parts.   This site does NOT need to be written in Rebol, it 
needs to function.  If each person just did a very little, a team 
of 10 or so people could bring this alive with just an hour or so 
a month once the set up is done.

What can off-the-shelf-parts do better? And: can we run chat-daemons?

Is there a chance to set up ios-servers, or is that to expensive?

rebol.org is the library site and the mailing list site.  It's not 
an aggregator site.

Must it be rebol-only, or can it be a meeting-place for other languages/topics 
too? Which would be cool in case we do it in rebol.

Agree with Graham. Its more our script-lexicon, not the palace.

And agree with Reichart that such a site would be cool. (Reading 
the "full own server"-part)

I don't know what they can do better, my only point is, don't let 
our inability to find a Rebol solution to a problem stop us from 
finding a solution to the problem.

IOS is great as long as it is an "Open" IOS servers.  Meaning EVERYONE 
is welcome.  I want to see an end to any form of elitism in the Rebol 
community.  It hurts everyone.

Yes, I'm clear on what Rebol.org is, still looks like it was designed 
by the Incarceration committee for the Federal government.


Other languages, SURE.  That only drives traffic.  Although it would 
probably end up being just in the forums.

(Full own server could mean uniserv2 (forgot the real name) and a 
fast vanilla based on that.

We don't have that many people here who have design skills

Graham wins the "first to say something can't be done" award.

Unless they are paid and can spend more time?

thanks.

What's so pizzaz about the ruby site ?

Are you sure you're not just venting ??

We don't design anything, we find a site that already looks great, 
and use it.  Pay homage, as we like to say.

I see IOS more like a quick meeting-place. Want to do something, 
set up new server. Together with web-publishing. Say we have a few 
licenses for some projects.

I agree we should use off the shelf components.

This not invented here thing gets tiresome.

Ruby's site is actually pretty cool, and my fav part is:  Ruby 1.8.4 
released! [2005-12-24] by maki Ruby 1.8.4 has been released. on the 
first line.  It means it is ALIVE, people are posting, stuff is HAPPENING. 
 

How about you help, by finding sites that are even better, as opposed 
to questioning the few sites I found?

And venting does not come with offers to pay for stuff...it does 
not come with solutions.  Lets move forward and MAKE something.

I don't go to non rebol language sites !

How looks vanilla? I like it, by i am no art-guy.

I tried using vanilla for this purpose ... but I'm not a graphics/design 
guy

and vanilla is so sloooooow

Your server had technical problems. First i was reluctant to spawn 
a process, then i forgot a bit about it.

well, it was actually a rebol problem .. I wasn't the only one to 
report hanging daemons.

I heard there is a combination of uniserv and vanilla, which is much 
faster. I guess vanilla runs on a daemon then. by cgi, it scans tons 
of files each time.

And here's another attempt using mediawiki

http://compkarori.com/rebolwiki/index.php/Main_Page

I know. Sorry for wording.

Wanted topoint out: This is a dedicated box.

I think you're talking about implementation details .. whereas R 
is looking at the overall picture.