World: r3wp

I did a very crude and basic Logo/turtle system. So it's a very doable 
concept.

Pekr, thanks, but again, that is a Planner, I'm looking for the opposite. 
 The house alrady exists, I'm just logging.  This is a concept that 
does not really exist as a product, (but should).  Every time you 
update a wire, or install a new sink, etc. you need to log just that 
one object.

Gregg, does it use AGG?

Reichart - IIRC those system exist, but I only once met enterprise 
level one. Thosoe are called "facility" management. They go down 
to invoices - you can look and see what particular wire type goes 
thru your house, etc - http://www.xanadu.cz/apps/fmflash/fmatweb.asp

can't remember some other products, I never saw it working in real-life. 
I just knew one consultant who did this kind of stuff and we had 
some chat about it.

It's just REBOL, Reichart, so it uses AGG on newer releases. It just 
generates DRAW commands.

Which REBOL script do you think would be the best to start with?

You know......................after much thought, what I might just 
do is write a simple ML to SVG converter.

It would be almost a 1:1 command set (in fact mostly what I would 
be doing is translating offsets).

The ML would be clean, while the emiter would allow a browser to 
be the viewer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics

I would get Cyphre's opinion on that. Mine is old, and nothing to 
write home about, but the turtle graphcis concept seems to be a very 
close match with what you're after.

Maybe SVG has pathing commands that are close. I don't know.

doesn't the SHAPE command in DRAW basically do this?

Henrik, It may, I have never played with DRAW.  I'm old, so I still 
think in PS (Post Script).

I'm in a conference now with Richard, and will talk to him as well.

I always like to ask around just to test teh waters.


I'm going to be curious if SVG is going to catch on.  It is a crappy 
way to store vectors

Doubt it ... now that Adobe own Macromedia

SVG has been around for a long time, but is very wide spread in the 
open source community now.

but commercially not much.

Graham, what part do you doubt?

SVG has promise, and "smells" to me like someting that will grow. 
 It badly needs a Pcode, since there is no reason to parse every 
time.

It looks very promising as a way to do what I want to do, and keep 
things standard.  Plus we might build a DRAW to SVG dialect for Reports, 
Graphs, and even light interface (like Gantt).

Current draw is basically SVG

(but I don't like SVG... I really hate to open page with 3 SVG diagrams 
and my computer does nothing else than parse and draws these diagrams... 
the worst it is that the page is from W3C, so they should know that 
thay can use PNG for these images.. it would require less space to 
transfer and my computer could do better things while displaying 
such a page.

PNG can't scale, no? And I can be PNG file smaller than vectors transferred? 
The slowness of whole stuff is another thing.  Dunno if we can support 
SVG out-of-the-box. We are using AGG, while the rest of the world 
is using Cairo.

And since Adobe has Mocaromedias knowhow, why thay should use SVG 
scripting... but with such a corporations one never knows

it's a shame I don't know the link... I would post you the SVG source... 
how large it can be

and PNG does not scale, but do I scale web page?

Don't forget that SVG is XML so it can be very large if you draw 
something more complex

OK, but do you think that it is a bad thing to have vector gfx available? 
That way, VID3 UI will be scallable. Carl also said, that there is 
some space for improvement. What Cyphre thinks is, that maybe we 
could get compound rasteriser workind, which could speed things up 
a bit (Flash uses it)

Yes, DRAW is MUCH better than SVG though.  Hence I was thinkning 
about just doing a dialect mostly in DRAW with an SVG emiter.
There is SVGZ (zipped SVG), but Pcode would be better.

PNG is a container...so it can contain Raster, Vector, well, actually 
it can contain anything (sort of like Amiga IFF format).

I'm not agains vector graphics... I just don't like SVG

The point of SVG is that it is the lowest common denom...

That will ALWAYS suck, but at least you know things will render.

And I'm FOR vector, but also don't like SVG.  But if it is a standard, 
I will support.  It will mean I can send you a graphic, and you can 
display it with just a browser.

Why there are no SVG maps but everybody is using PNG layers?

What do you mean Maps?

just an example

Do you mean map as in Earth?

Check this out: http://croczilla.com/svg/samples/svgtetris/svgtetris.svg

yes

so what? should I send you some Flash site link?

This is not a compitition...............just showing a cute example. 
 You guys sure do jump to the negative quickly...

It's slow, but here is the US in SVG http://apps.arcwebservices.com/svgviewer/map.html

terribly slow... but nice source of data... that's good thing with 
SVG.. it's easily parseable

A friend of mine works for ESRI (the source of the data), this was 
a test project for them.  Very slow, but it culd be very fast.  They 
need to intigrate teh DOM with the Data (sectioning off stuff).

To convert this world viewer to REBOL should be very easy.  It would 
be a good test of VID3, and of DRAW.  And it would be instant cool 
(and actually useful).

Do you think we could add kind of PCode to Draw?

IIRC, some guys wanted some "save points"(?), so that once you render 
some bunch of vectors, you would save the rendering state, so that 
next time you could reuse it without no need to re-render.

but don't take me serious, I could misunderstood the issue.

You have to ask cyphre

REBOL would make good use of Pcode, since it would still be parsing 
at the same level.  Yeah, saving the "State" of a vector render would 
in theory be very fast then.

There are a lot of not so well thought out things about SVG (or I'm 
missing it in some way).  For example, you "animate" at the object 
level.

In my mind it should be:

- Make list of objects.
- Group some of them.
- Animate by reference.

But SVG seems to be simply:

- Make an object, embed animation.
- Next object.

Reichart - do you know - http://www.caligari.com/? Maybe good enough 
to "record" stuff around your house? Hmm, but maybe way too much 
complicated for what you need ...

If you want Pcode for SVG, use one of the binary XML encodings like 
EBML. If you want Pcode for REBOL, that's what Rebin is to be.

Yup, I knew Roman (the founded) when he introduced his stuff at SIGGRAPH, 
an when he first showed Calagari on the Amiga.  His stuff has come 
a LONG way.  Very impressive (very cool guy too).
I need only a 2D scripting system though.


BrianH, I did not know about EBML, but I don't see the advantage 
of EBML, or Rebin for that matter.  PCode (in my simple mind) servers 
several purposes:

- Portability to multiple systems.
- Faster execution
- Smaller size

Pretty much in that order.


Back when I did video games, I designed a language called MIDAS (which, 
while it looks like I made the name fit the acronym, I did not….Machine 
Independent Demonstration and Animation System)


It was designed to do the opening credits, scores, dialogs, win sequences, 
and it produced simple (very very simple pcode) out to the C64, IBM, 
Amiga, etc.  All you had to do was convert the art, and we had a 
tool to do that too.


Each command would become 1 byte (since there were less than 256 
commands.  So it produced something that looked like assembly.


With both EBML and Rebin, there would be (I assume) still parsing, 
unless you are writing everything yourself (in other words, a player).

= founded, serves.

You have to parse Pcode too - it's just easier to do so (I have).