World: r3wp

I've just asked Carl to help in maintaining Altme in another comm 
channel... hopefully he'll see that and reply to me in a not to distant 
future.

IMO the fix is simple. Use a database as backend. Never understood 
why this step is so hard to do. Even with 1 Mio. messages you won't 
feel a slow down.

So, db on both servers and clients?

Interesting, why use a DB and add bloat, why not just write just 
enough code to keep it fast?
For example, loading in messages in groups of 100....

That's essentially the data structure we use in the archive at REBOL.org, 
Reichart.

Works fast and has scaled so far -- with nearly 150,000 posts from 
this world:
   http://www.rebol.org/aga-groups-index.r?world=r3wp

Graham, yep, that's how I would solve it.


Reichart, well, 250KB for SQLite is not that much bloat IMO and supports 
full-text searching as well.

I love AltMe, but it has things that annoy me as well. Since we don't 
know exactly why it doesn't scale (yes, we can guess), I don't think 
just making the back end a DB is a guaranteed fix, or perhaps even 
that simple. And I don't think it will happen. I fear the R3 chat/rebdev/??? 
model will scale even worse than AltMe as I think the msg db is a 
single file and still a naive implementation designed for small-scale 
use.


Like Graham, I've thought that something like Git--a system designed 
for distributed, differenced, repositories of information--might 
be used. I haven't seen it done however.

What ar our options?

1) Live with AltMe, and roll worlds when they get too slow.
2) Find an alternative.
3) Implement our own.

Is #1 painful enough to drive us to #2 or #3?

Nice analysis, Gregg.

This worls has lasted six years [started dec-2004], so #1 is annoying, 
but not too painful.

I'd rather have 10 years or whatever in one database and not mulitple 
worlds as one wears out

Suggesting an answer is pointless without knowing the issues .. so, 
I'd go for #3

actually the r3 chat system *client* is still pretty simple... but 
the way messages are managed via the server seems to be much more 
flexible.  every msg and file is its own single item.  they are downloaded 
as items, not as groups of items.


so actually, all that needs to be done to make r3 chat scale is to 
improve how it stores its messages on disk and on RAM.   


the fact that the server supports moderation, threads, user levels, 
files, and things like item re-classification is very nice.


really, all it needs is a gui client.... that's If the server is 
able to respond quickly to requests.

though I don't think it supports "private until approved" moderation.

though I'm sure its possible to rewire how Altme message passing 
works.  as long as the server has the data and client/server are 
using the same message protocol, everything can be changed.


it can even be retro-fitted on update, to prevent people from having 
to download the whole world again, since we already have the data 
on our disks.

First of all AltME should become open sourced to do any improvements. 
Hard to say if it's possible.

The sad true is, that this AltME world has serious problems. I would 
vote to start new one. I have no problems with that.

Better to start a new world than to stay in this one and see personal 
forks like Graham started:-)

Continuous improvement is the only path.  Either Carl does this, 
or this product will be abandoned.

And we are probably all lazy dogs :-) I like how we speculate, yet 
noone has ever asked Carl. Actually - I did, and it resulted in a 
fix of expired worlds. And it is always the same and the same. Carl 
once told me - tell me what the problem is, and I will look into 
it. So - anyone to ask Carl for open-sourcing AltME? :-)

Yes.

why dod he say no?

I think he tends to ignore those type of questions!

Altme was once the big hope of making $$

so it would be hard to open source it now if it is continuing to 
provide a revenue stream

Is Carl really living of the AltME revenue stream these days?

living off

Wine is not doing well these days

how many people are buying SDKs?

IOS was sold long time ago to Reichart's company

what's left?

the fortune he amassed at Amiga?

he was an employee ...

You may recall a recent tweet of his finding a lot of Amiga relics 
in his basement .. so he's going to sell them

I guess cindy was tired of looking at them and it was either ebay 
or the garbage...  ;-)

how many wives go down to the basement??

Unless he needs the space to store his wine??

I guess if he starts to refer to his basement as a cellar we will 
know :)

My guess is IOS was never sold to Reichart, in fact it might be Altme, 
where Softinnov was owner, but now Altme/Softinnov/whatever  fully 
belongs to Carl. It is just the same as me talked Carl into releasing 
/pro components for free ...

Nobody is asking Carl, because we want Carl working on R3, not fixing 
AltME.

SoftInnov is Dockimbel's company .. maybe you're thinking of SafeWorlds?

Carl told me that IOS was sold to Reichart's company

when I was asking him to open source it

yes, sorry, it was SafeWorlds of course. Did not know about IOS state, 
but - IOS was definitely at least one level upon the comm architecture 
of altme ....

I think that someone from RM Assest who is now close to Carl would 
have to ask Carl, about the possiblity of open-sourcing AltME, but 
- AltME is used even by some commercial entities, so I don't know 
if it is likely to happen. As for me, I prefer Carl working on R3. 
And I can't see the situation being dramatic, nor do I agree with 
the launch of the new world. In such a case, I might consider not 
being present. I am used to be here, and apart from personal messages, 
there is not any significant slowdown or outages lately. We were 
in much worse situation in the past imo ...

How about ... we create a backup of this world somewhere, and prune 
all the rarely used groups from here?

I seem to have missed the details on how exactly AltME gets slow 
- it feels OK to me, these days. No real lag when submitting a message.

Of course, all of you are always more then welcome to join me via 
IRC in #rebol on freenode.

Andreas, are there non-altME users there?

Not really, no.

Every few days someone stumbles by but only to quickly leave again 
in general. Every few weeks one of those passersby actually asks 
something. And then, about one out of three of those questions is 
actually REBOL-related.

ok