World: r3wp

well, screw that. I'm not interested in those alternatives. I'm interested 
in R3.

Good for you. Now all the other programmers will say screw REBOL, 
unless you can wave a do-it-yourself option at them

Well, screw them too, because it doesn't sounds like there is any 
appreciation of why Carl has designed R3 in the way he has.

You' re seeing things into this that aren' t there

I'm seeing that Geomol finds that it's a good idea to have a competing 
project to REBOL 3. Given the way R3 is designed with as many open 
source parts as possible and as many extensible parts as possible 
to provide a platform for potentially hundreds of developers to extend 
in nearly any direction, I'd say that idea makes little sense.

Again, that' s your opinion. R3 is not just vying for your support

If you were to scratch old Amiga faithfuls from this community, I' 
m afraid I would be the only one remaining

I wouldn't say it's competing, more complementary. An open source 
clone is still dependent on the original for direction, but has a 
place for those that require open source all the way. Would that 
effort be better directed to R3? That depends on what is driving 
the developer behind Boron.

(which, by the way is a far less elegant name than Orca)

Borat is better

Sure, but ORCA was triple-overloaded, including another language

For people reading this, that might not know. There was a R3-Alpha 
AltME world running from june 2007 with lots of discussion incl. 
many well known REBOL developers. The chat take up more than 9 MB 
of disk space. Activity died out early this year, and some of it 
continued in R3 chat.

And the reason was??

The reason for it dying out? Carl created R3 chat and moved there. 
Many didn't follow, I guess.

And the other reason was .. that Carl didn't actually turn up much 
in r3alpha world

I can only speak for myself. I found lots of the discussion in R3-Alpha 
good and giving, but I also found the actual progress unstructured. 
I saw it like building a very tall building (like a skyscraper), 
where you work on all stores at the same time. I prefer to start 
from the ground, make every store solid and finished before moving 
on to the next store.

The reason was that AltME didn't turn out to be a good tool for having 
a focused development discussion. Add more than 5 people and it degenerated 
into useless flamewars. This is why a separate R3 world was created 
with just 5 people in it, until we could get to the point of creating 
a development communications infrastructure that would be able to 
handle more developers. That was R3 chat (formerly known as DevBase) 
and CureCode (formerly planned as BugBase, but implemented by a third-party 
instead).

In January of 2008 (more or less, maybe as early as Nov 2007) we 
restarted the project. Except for some port model stuff, everything 
we've done on R3 has been done since then. That is why we say that 
R3 has only taken 2 years so far.

As for Boron, I'm all for it, as long as it is license comopatible. 
The ORCA license precluded any sharing with REBOL (the license choice 
seemed to do that deliberately), so any work on it was necessarily 
divisive. Which is why it hasn't really gone anywhere. If Boron chooses 
a open source license that is compatible with R3's open source license, 
then there will be no reason to choose one instead of the other - 
you can choose both, and have work on one benefit both.

This is why Mono and .NET work so well together: Their open source 
portions can be used by each other. This is why more and more of 
Microsoft's development tools are being released with open source 
licenses.

That's easy then. Carl hasn' t come up with a license yet, so he 
would have to use the Boron license

This is the first time I hear there was a development reset. Why 
was that?

Design process broke down, and needed a reboot. We know how to build 
a language, but we weren't as good at building a working community 
development model that was compatible with the language design standards. 
All better now :)

Kaj - I am really not sure we have to hear such a crap ... anyone 
carrying a brain in his head CAN properly follow what R3 development 
is all about, how MUCH energy is being put into that. Anything else 
is a junk ...

I can't believe I can read reactions dismissing the effort. And I 
really stop to care ...

That open source idiocism really plays on my nerves. So ppl have 
Orca for 4 years? Isn't it open source version of REBOL? Yet we can 
hear, that if R3 is not fully open sourced, it will not be accepted. 
Accepted by whom? A GPL freaks? Should we care? I have really no 
respect to such ppl. Where is Orca nowadays? That open-source-being-a-cure-for-all-problems 
is really turning into being rudiculous

Henrik is totally right. Even if R3 would be 100% open-sourced, the 
same ppl would still find some excuses to complain about. Screw them 
:-)

Geomol - please stop complaining about R3 alpha or R3 GUI world. 
You were one of the invited top developers, yet you was one of those 
failing to provide a feedback. I remember how you all preferred to 
chat about science here, instead of providing any reasonable input. 
So what actually are you complaining about?

... because - I was there, daily. And if I wanted, I could talk to 
Carl, on almost a daily basis, privately. Anyone could ...

You, too, are seeing things into this that aren' t there

yes, of course, I live my life  on a magic mushrooms :-)

If you say so

my god... people... calm down...   :-D

R2 still exists and works...

Yup, that' s why I use it. And anything else that works

and Boron is just another language.  in any case, we can learn cool 
things from it and add them to R3.

I speak both french and english... and well, neither is evil   ;-)

Unless you use your hand while playing soccer

let there be 10 REBOL alternatives...   :-)   that will just attract 
more people to the style.. and ultimately to REBOL.

Anyway this should be moved to advocacy

I just had a remark about chrome OS.... its really nothing very new... 
its a 50 year old concept.

the fact that it uses http, html and js... doesn't make it different 
from any other stupid dumb terminal.

advocacy ..

this is not advocacy... I'm not talking about REBOL.... :-P

Pekr, please. Log into R3-Alpha and look in the old talks (also before 
you were invited there). You'll find many posts from me. I often 
choose not to talk, when the noise level go up. When you entered 
R3-Alpha, the noise level raised a great deal, so you will find fewer 
post from me at the time forward.

Talk talk talk isn't solving many things. Saying the right things 
in little words can be a benefit sometimes.

Yes, and there was the second world - R3 GUI, and Carl invited me, 
because top 10 developers did not provide much of responses. That 
world was imo very well focused, only handset of ppl there. That 
contradicts your claims ...

As I said - I don't care anymore.

You can apply "talk talk talk" to yourself as well :-) I can bet 
that you don't have the right thing to say. Or you might try to define 
actions RT or the community should take, to bring any REBOL advancement 
on-board.

All I see here is failure to realize what R3 is about and why it's 
dangerous to clone or fork it. If it were simply a programming language 
then it wouldn't be much of a big deal, because other languages are 
in a similar state of confusing disarray. Programmers are used to 
having to select an implementation of a language. It would be bad, 
but it wouldn't be terrible. REBOL has the luxury of not being in 
this state. Since R3 is an OS-like platform, much more is at stake, 
because people may decide not to be interested in R3's biggest features 
at all.


Extensions and host code opens up a big employment gap that is potentially 
never filled, if people decide impatiently to just clone REBOL, if 
they are unhappy with a particular aspect of R3, because they didn't 
either study it hard enough, don't realize how hard Carl is working 
on servicing exactly those people or just can't wait 2 months for 
that feature to be implemented or this and that bug to be fixed.


Having 10 REBOL alternatives diminishes the much needed authority 
of the original REBOL and it diminishes the authority Carl has over 
the language. REBOL can't grow without that authority. That's also 
why things like Linux isn't doing any better than it is, because 
of massive re-inventing of the same crap over and over again slightly 
differently, because people in that environment haven't had an ultimate 
design authority to work against. We have that here and we must not 
lose it. That is what allows REBOL to grow way beyond other platforms.


But I realize also that such growth is not in many people's interest 
or within their grasp. They just want a turd polished in a different 
color rather than wait for the flower to grow.


This is one case where evolution is not needed. Intelligent design 
is needed.