World: r3wp

:-) ok, ok .... looking forward to first alpha then :-)

Now Google goes completely mad :) http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/overview.html

hehe, they want internet to become OS .... and PC OSes to become 
just - commodities - non-important in its own, just a layer for internet 
networked apps :-)

this is pretty bad ... it opens up a lot of stupid cases... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/21/moderator_liable_for_comments/

Regarding multitasking and REBOL, how far is it possible to go using 
communication between tasks over the TCP protocol? I've implemented 
multi-user locking this way with a relational database in REBOL, 
and it works quite well. I haven't done stress-test, so I have no 
real measurement, how effective it is, and what the performance is 
compared to other inter-task communication methods. I'm working on 
an OpenGL implementation, where OpenGL commands are sent from a REBOL 
task to an OpenGL server task (written in C), which will execute 
the OpenGL commands, so I'm about to get more experience in this. 
Both tasks will run on the same computer, but can easily be on different 
computers, of course.


Anyone with more experience in task communication using TCP? Where 
is the limit?

hmm, I am not sure I like it ... you open a port and firewall jumps 
in

Geomol - I remember some material re linux and using tcp for IPC 
and someone said it is quite expensive - communication wise (headers, 
ack)

it should be imo done on low-level, just the queue should be exposed, 
like event queue .... well, not sure, Carl does it right hopefully 
anyway, so :-)

:)

RE: Google...I want internet to become OS as well.

John...cool.  Build an X-Windows like layer between Rebol and OpenGL.

Someone: explain the top at Google, what REBOL is, so they can put 
development capital in REBOL Tech.

Google - the funny point here is: They say code in java, compile 
to javascript. The first time i see it that way around. Till now 
i heard "use scripting to get it running, use java/c for big things/speed". 
Javascript must be really awfull :)

Geomol - that is why I am heading towards IBM :-) We will see, but 
I have too little knowledge to work there probably :-) Carl once 
said, that he would like to sell rebol to some big party .... IBM 
is the right one ....

Geomol: someone exlain google *where* rebol is. They do this because 
ajax-the-runtime is everywhere, but seemingly the worst way to code.

but Reichart tends to have lunch with lots of those top guys, so 
why not. IIRC BeOS got 50mil injection from Intel .... and Intel 
did not want any share or so - they just wanted to support good technology

Intel may have done that just to piss off microsoft during thier 
negotiations.

rebol->tcp-<opengl: could work. bottleneck is lots of request. In 
your case you would only do one request/frame. Copying the bytes 
on the same machine should be fast.

I'm developing a byte-code style for OpenGL commands, so little communication 
is needed. Only 1 byte for the command (gl, glu and glut commands 
are fewer than 256), and 4 bytes for most parameters. So many commands 
are fewer than 10 bytes of communication. It may not be fast enough 
for games, but I hope, it's fast enough to make tools and fast OpenGL 
prototyping (trying out ideas).

hum Geomol, is it possible to start a new group for this?  I'd like 
to support your endeavor with testing and I think this can become 
a big thread!

Maxim, in a few days, I hope. I'll speak up, when I have something 
concrete to show.

Geomol - just be sure you send enough data for OS to send two packets 
at least, or you will notice 200ms delay imo ...

hehe sometimes more is less  ;-)

Maybe make benchmarks first. Blast a realistic amount of data from 
rebol to rebol. Maybe by beer or uniserve, something fast.

I am not sure it is true anymore, but we noticed it developing our 
ccd camera few years ago ... OS simply waits with ACK defined period 
of time or simply to receive second packet, then it confirm both 
.... Ethereal will give you an answer :-)

Pekr, good hint. But i guess to calls to send a byte are two packets 
too. And then there was some flag too IIRC. Somebody remember?

yes, isn't it called Nagle algorithm? It can be set - nodelay ...

in set-modes I mean ....

but is not recommended IIRC :-)

Gabriele, tasking without any explicit control  is risky. How do 
you handle two task both writting to the same file, who gets access 
to the resource, how you enforce determinism?

Apple closes down OS-X - http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/17/78300_21OPcurve_1.html

have not read it yet, so sorry if it is not what topic states ....

Tasking discussion could move to Rebol3 maybe? (because there is 
general interest in the concept)

Closes the source of os-x

darvin-kernel.

Jaime, writing to files is something for the os to handle, not the 
language. what happens if you write from rebol on a file you're writing 
from another app?

Maybe Jaime means: If you do everything that way, including the os? 
But, there would be no  such thing as a file, there would be a file-server, 
eg a third task. Which gets request and can sort them out.

pekr, because of piracy??

Gabriele, I don't think is an OS issue only. Once you introduce tasking 
would could write something like:

do [
    task [write %file "Hello"]
    task [write %file "World"]
]


The question is what is the result of such computation. Without any 
further mechanism it can produce as minimum two different results. 
"World Hello"  "Hello World", discarding posible contention errors. 
So how does R3 will manage such issues.

Creative sues Apple over patents - http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?dist=newsfinder&siteid=google&guid=%7BCB4F9BED-E370-4CCA-92E6-AC8EB26451F4%7D&keyword=

what a crap - I stop buying Creative stuff. If some company can't 
innovate, they should shut-up and leave the scene. How can anyone 
with good brain condition patent such a thing as sorting based upon 
ID3 tag content?

One can even sue about using a trashcan -icon for a trashcan IIRC..

do[

  task 'task-server [ set[file content] copy msg  write file content 
  ]
  task [ send 'task-server %file "Hello" ]
  task[ send 'task-server %file "World" ]
]

'task-server -> 'file-server

Volker, you are proposing data flow through msg queues?

But the msg queue above still has non-determinism involved. Because 
you can not control how TASK handles scheduling.

Why get so excited ? Did you read the last line in that article ?

But what you wrote is similar too
either 1 = random 2[ write%file "Hello"][write %file "world"]

What a task does depends upon what a task gets. I imagine a task 
in erlang as a little engine, which gets things of various kinds, 
wires them together when it has one of each kind and passes them 
further. And that "further" can not be deterministic with real hardware. 
Think of an out-of-order-cpu, a little delay in a memory-fetch and 
the command is processed by another pipeline. And that is without 
routing around crashed things. I prefer to have a full featured language 
to calculate the new route, not something restricted.

Jaime, I just don't think rebol should manage files. but, you can 
do coordination, just using message ports. and you can write a dialect 
over that.

the real issue is: people always use multithreading, even when there 
is no reason to.