World: r3wp

Someone: explain the top at Google, what REBOL is, so they can put 
development capital in REBOL Tech.

Google - the funny point here is: They say code in java, compile 
to javascript. The first time i see it that way around. Till now 
i heard "use scripting to get it running, use java/c for big things/speed". 
Javascript must be really awfull :)

Geomol - that is why I am heading towards IBM :-) We will see, but 
I have too little knowledge to work there probably :-) Carl once 
said, that he would like to sell rebol to some big party .... IBM 
is the right one ....

Geomol: someone exlain google *where* rebol is. They do this because 
ajax-the-runtime is everywhere, but seemingly the worst way to code.

but Reichart tends to have lunch with lots of those top guys, so 
why not. IIRC BeOS got 50mil injection from Intel .... and Intel 
did not want any share or so - they just wanted to support good technology

Intel may have done that just to piss off microsoft during thier 
negotiations.

rebol->tcp-<opengl: could work. bottleneck is lots of request. In 
your case you would only do one request/frame. Copying the bytes 
on the same machine should be fast.

I'm developing a byte-code style for OpenGL commands, so little communication 
is needed. Only 1 byte for the command (gl, glu and glut commands 
are fewer than 256), and 4 bytes for most parameters. So many commands 
are fewer than 10 bytes of communication. It may not be fast enough 
for games, but I hope, it's fast enough to make tools and fast OpenGL 
prototyping (trying out ideas).

hum Geomol, is it possible to start a new group for this?  I'd like 
to support your endeavor with testing and I think this can become 
a big thread!

Maxim, in a few days, I hope. I'll speak up, when I have something 
concrete to show.

Geomol - just be sure you send enough data for OS to send two packets 
at least, or you will notice 200ms delay imo ...

hehe sometimes more is less  ;-)

Maybe make benchmarks first. Blast a realistic amount of data from 
rebol to rebol. Maybe by beer or uniserve, something fast.

I am not sure it is true anymore, but we noticed it developing our 
ccd camera few years ago ... OS simply waits with ACK defined period 
of time or simply to receive second packet, then it confirm both 
.... Ethereal will give you an answer :-)

Pekr, good hint. But i guess to calls to send a byte are two packets 
too. And then there was some flag too IIRC. Somebody remember?

yes, isn't it called Nagle algorithm? It can be set - nodelay ...

in set-modes I mean ....

but is not recommended IIRC :-)

Gabriele, tasking without any explicit control  is risky. How do 
you handle two task both writting to the same file, who gets access 
to the resource, how you enforce determinism?

Apple closes down OS-X - http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/05/17/78300_21OPcurve_1.html

have not read it yet, so sorry if it is not what topic states ....

Tasking discussion could move to Rebol3 maybe? (because there is 
general interest in the concept)

Closes the source of os-x

darvin-kernel.

Jaime, writing to files is something for the os to handle, not the 
language. what happens if you write from rebol on a file you're writing 
from another app?

Maybe Jaime means: If you do everything that way, including the os? 
But, there would be no  such thing as a file, there would be a file-server, 
eg a third task. Which gets request and can sort them out.

pekr, because of piracy??

Gabriele, I don't think is an OS issue only. Once you introduce tasking 
would could write something like:

do [
    task [write %file "Hello"]
    task [write %file "World"]
]


The question is what is the result of such computation. Without any 
further mechanism it can produce as minimum two different results. 
"World Hello"  "Hello World", discarding posible contention errors. 
So how does R3 will manage such issues.

Creative sues Apple over patents - http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?dist=newsfinder&siteid=google&guid=%7BCB4F9BED-E370-4CCA-92E6-AC8EB26451F4%7D&keyword=

what a crap - I stop buying Creative stuff. If some company can't 
innovate, they should shut-up and leave the scene. How can anyone 
with good brain condition patent such a thing as sorting based upon 
ID3 tag content?

One can even sue about using a trashcan -icon for a trashcan IIRC..

do[

  task 'task-server [ set[file content] copy msg  write file content 
  ]
  task [ send 'task-server %file "Hello" ]
  task[ send 'task-server %file "World" ]
]

'task-server -> 'file-server

Volker, you are proposing data flow through msg queues?

But the msg queue above still has non-determinism involved. Because 
you can not control how TASK handles scheduling.

Why get so excited ? Did you read the last line in that article ?

But what you wrote is similar too
either 1 = random 2[ write%file "Hello"][write %file "world"]

What a task does depends upon what a task gets. I imagine a task 
in erlang as a little engine, which gets things of various kinds, 
wires them together when it has one of each kind and passes them 
further. And that "further" can not be deterministic with real hardware. 
Think of an out-of-order-cpu, a little delay in a memory-fetch and 
the command is processed by another pipeline. And that is without 
routing around crashed things. I prefer to have a full featured language 
to calculate the new route, not something restricted.

Jaime, I just don't think rebol should manage files. but, you can 
do coordination, just using message ports. and you can write a dialect 
over that.

the real issue is: people always use multithreading, even when there 
is no reason to.

if a thread has to wait for another, then you're just wasting time 
and creating problems with threads.

threads are efficient when they are independent (tasks). otherwise 
you should not use them.

if you want order, don't make two separate tasks. if you make two 
separate tasks is because you don't want order.

Gabriele - so we will ge threads, which will be simplified for rebol 
users/coders, and some kind of messsage queues?

But IMO Jaime thought he needs sometimes exclusive access, locking. 
After my example he got it mostly, "Volker, you are proposing data 
flow through msg queues?".

locking is painful, a server like you propose is much better.

Now we discuss how to put enough determinism in that system.

i need to read that paper jaime posted; anyway if it's just linda 
style, it's trivial to do with a server handling the tuple space.

i think that if you want determinism you should probably avoid parallel 
processing. parallel processing is good when you don't care about 
determinism - if you care then where is the advantage?

Prepending i understood it and ask for theothers: What isa tuple-space? 
:)

volker: basically a block of blocks :)