World: r3wp

Brian H: My "suggestions" are not suggestions merely questions.

BrianH, oh well, it's a pity.

Ladislav wrote: "5.0 and 50.0 (or, do you mean, it is only "roughly" 
5.0 and 10.0?)"


Yes, the mean must be slightly below 5.0 and 50.0 with the new random. 
With your first version, it is exactly 5.0 and 50.0.

With the new random, 0.0 will also get a lot more hits than numbers 
close to 0.0. It's because the distance between different decimals 
is small with number close to zero, while the distance gets larger 
and larger with higher and higher numbers. (Because of IEEE 754 implementation.) 
So the max value will get a lot more hits than a small number, and 
all hits on the max value gets converted to 0.0.

I wouldn't use the new random function with decimals.

slightly below 5.0 and 50.0
 - certainly, but the difference is "undetectable" in these cases

moreover, this version is quite standard - see e.g. Wikipedia, or 
the Dylan programming language, etc.

If you do a lot of

random 2 ** 300

, the mean will be a lot below 2 ** 300 / 2.

yes, in that case, sure

You're doing a good job, I just don't agree with Carl's view on this.

hmm, but I am still not sure, you would have to use a denormalized 
number as an argument to be able to detect the difference

I think, that the "main problem" may be, that the uniform deviates 
are only rarely what is needed, quite often it is necessary to transform 
them to normal, lognormal, exponential, or otherwise differently 
distributed deviates

If you did e.g.

random 10.0


many many times, wouldn't you get a result, where 0.0 has a lot of 
hits, the first number higher than 0.0 will get close to zero hits, 
and then the number of hits will grow up to the number just below 
10.0, which will have almost as many hits as 0.0?

no, the hits are expected to be uniformly distributed, i.e. the same 
number of hits for 0.0 as for any interior point is expected

(if it does not work that way, then there is a bug)

But the number lie much closer around zero than around 10.0.

aha, yes, the numbers aren't uniformly distributed; well, can you 
test it?

So when you do the calculation going from a random integer and divide 
to get a decimal, you get a result between zero and 10.0. If the 
result is close to zero, there are many many numbers to give the 
result, while if the result is close to 10.0, there are much fewer 
possible numbers to give the result.

less numbers (lower density of numbers) = higher hit count per number

yes

The result will look strange around zero. Many many counts for 0.0 
and very few counts for the following numbers.

but, that cannot influence the mean value

yes, it does. I would say, of course it does. :)

You take a lot of hits for the max value and convert them to 0.0.

...it could influence the mean value only if the compiler used an 
"insensible" way of rounding

aha, more hits for the max...sorry, did not take that into account

It could take a long long time to run an example showing this.

but, anyway, I am still pretty sure, that such a difference actually 
is undetectable

yes, you would have to run the test "almost forever" to see anything

A test could be to run
random 1.0

many many times and save the results coming close to zero. Like my 
other test, checking if the result is within the first 1024 number 
close to zero. After running the test many times, a picture can be 
seen.

for random 1.0 you cannot find any irregularities, there aren't any

(the random numbers you may obtain are regularly spaced in that case)

ah yes. :) You need larger numbers. Up to what number is the distance 
between numbers the same? 2.0?

for sure, if the difference should be detectable, then you should 
try random 2 ** 1023

- in that case the chances are much higher, that you could detect 
any irregularities

do I understand correctly, that you prefer the variant including 
both endpoints?

yes

...and your main reason is, that you know the endpoints exactly?

I'm in doubt about the distribution of numbers. Is this R2 function 
calculating ulps between two number ok?

ulps: func [
    value1 
    value2 
    /local d1 d2
][
    d: make struct! [v [decimal!]] none 
    d1: make struct! [hi [integer!] lo [integer!]] none 
    d2: make struct! [hi [integer!] lo [integer!]] none 
    d/v: value1 
    change third d1 third d 
    d/v: value2 
    change third d2 third d 
    print [d1/hi d1/lo d2/hi d2/lo] 
    print [d1/hi - d2/hi * (2 ** 32) + d1/lo - d2/lo]
]

suggestion: R3

The reason, I prefer your first version is:
- I always know the endpoints exactly.
- The mean is well defined.
- The function is simpler and faster.

REBOL [
    Author: "Ladislav Mecir"
    Purpose: {Converts decimal to ordinal and back}
]

make object! [
    int-min: to integer! #{8000000000000000}
    set 'dec-as-int func [x [decimal!]] [
        x: to integer! to binary! x
        either x < 0 [int-min - x] [x]
    ]
    set 'int-as-dec func [x [integer!]] [
        if x < 0 [x: int-min - x]
        to decimal! to binary! x
    ]
]

your "difference in ulps" is just the difference between the ordinal 
numbers

So an R3 ulps could be:

ulps: func [
	lo	[decimal!]
	hi	[decimal!]
][
	(to-integer to-binary hi) - to-integer to-binary lo
]

>> ulps 0.0 0.1
== 4591870180066957722
>> ulps 0.1 0.2
== 4503599627370496

(as-int hi) - (as-int lo)

It seems, numbers lie much closer around zero than around 0.1.

sorry, (dec-as-int hi) - (dec-as-int lo)

>> (dec-as-int 0.1) - (dec-as-int 0.0)
== 4591870180066957722
>> (dec-as-int 0.2) - (dec-as-int 0.1)
== 4503599627370496

Same result. Now I'm confused! :-)

If this is correct, then my suggestion to do
random 1.0
many times will actually show the problem.

yes, you get different result only when trying (dec-as-int 0.0) - 
(dec-as-int -0.0)