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World: r3wp

[!REBOL3-OLD1]

Maxim
25-May-2007
[2486]
I am sure none in the community really expects view for a while...
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2487]
eg. AltME 3
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2488]
well, actually I think it is good RT wants to release it ASAP.
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2489x3]
yes, but that's how VID got done.
:-(
PITL usually implies a bit more mature design process, than, lets 
scramble something ASAP... quick throw it out the door ;-)
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2492]
I fear just one thing - that if new VID is not conceptually sufficient, 
new stuff gets build upon it, and then we will be reluctant to changes 
because of compatibility problems.
Rebolek
25-May-2007
[2493]
It's never been said anywhere, if the june/july release will be alpha, 
beta or final 3.0 version (and I don't expect the later), so I'm 
not afraid that some early prototype of new VID that will be released, 
will be also the final version. R3 final may come later enough to 
fix those problems.
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2494]
anyhow... I'll come back later... I've got to work...  bye everyone.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2495]
max, petr, all your comments so far can be summarized as, you don't 
trust me and Carl with coming with a good enough design. Can I tell 
this to Carl?
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2496]
Gabriele - well, whatever. That is the most "stupid" summary you 
could put on the table.
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2497]
its not a question of trust, Gabriele.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2498]
so you trust me and Carl but you fear the design will be bad?
Rebolek
25-May-2007
[2499]
Gabriele I think that he's more afraid that he (or anybody else) 
cannot comment your and Carl's design. I think he just wants that 
whater you come up with won't be final, but will be open to suggestions 
from community.
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2500]
Well, you can raise such summary against me, as I know others "talk 
is cheap" arguments, and I rarely produce any code anymore, but that 
just shows your disrespect to Henrik's and other's concerns ...
Rebolek
25-May-2007
[2501]
whater=whatever
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2502]
and changes, real open changes.
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2503]
I am off from the discussion, that does not make sense to me anymore 
...
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2504]
hehe pekr just tilted  ;-)
Rebolek
25-May-2007
[2505]
Calm down Pkr :)
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2506]
Rebolek, this started with me saying that I wanted to have more people 
to comment on VID
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2507]
I am calm enough I think.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2508]
petr, ok, i'm not sure how i can summarize the above.
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2509]
Gabriele, I hope you don't think that we think you can't build a 
proper system.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2510]
i think both of you said that you fear that the design will be rushed 
and not good enough.
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2511]
I've said it above, its not "good" that I want.  its "open", "extensible", 
and I mean that from the inside.
Rebolek
25-May-2007
[2512]
As I understand it, people are just afraid that their suggestions 
will end up in a trashcan and not that you and Carl cannot design 
it well.
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2513]
not changing colors.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2514]
if you didn't say that, then i can't read today, so i'll get back 
here tomorrow or so hoping to be better.
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2515]
I mean allowing us to change what a color means.
Mario
25-May-2007
[2516]
Please don't shot me as I must quickly step out my home: VID was 
designed in 1 week but its limits have been under our and RT eyes 
for years I don't think the newly designed VID/whatever-it's-called 
will be done ignoring the errors of the past. Propose your needs, 
collect them and submit them to Gregg or Gabriele to be told to Carl
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2517]
allowing me to use a gui and open it up in OpenGL, activeX, if I 
have the need/resources/time to provide it.  I mean to be able to 
extend the whole engine so I can skin it without needing to rebuild 
100% of the gadgets, etc... many of the things we spoke at the devcon, 
but more too.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2518]
so... you're afraid our goal is not the same as your goal? our goal 
is to allow the development of applications.
Rebolek
25-May-2007
[2519]
this started with me saying that I wanted to have more people to 
comment on VID

 - nice, but you also said that some interest group or comitee won't 
 take us anywhere (which may be right), so people may fear that nobody's 
 listening to them (and I think someone will agree that lack of communication 
 is biggest RT problem)
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2520]
obviously.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2521x2]
i stated that voting for design decisions is not going to work, i 
haven't stated that comments are not going to be listened to (why 
would i want more comments for?)
(so i have offended petr.)
Maxim
25-May-2007
[2523]
hehe.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2524]
the sad thing is that i still don't have something to tell Carl.
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2525x3]
Gabriele - I don't want to get to part, when we start to argue upon 
what started what. But for me, the discussion started yesterday, 
when you discussing with Max in liquid group, felt like collecting 
good ideas for your own design. I can't read anywhere, that actually 
what you did, you asked for more opinions! I felt quite opposite, 
witch you accusing us of some need of commitee to vote for what is 
good or not. The "commiteee" is old trick of Carl, sorry ;-) Noone 
was talking about it ...
Rebolek quite summed it nicely - we simply fear, we will not be able 
to comment soon enough, before the design is released.
And why? Because it already happened in the past.
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2528]
can i do anything about that fear?
Rebolek
25-May-2007
[2529]
if I may suggest something you (and Carl) should write a document 
about new VID internals (how it will work, what it is going to support) 
- no code required in this phase. Then please release this document 
and have others to comment it. Then rewrite the document according 
to proposals you like and then someone should start to code, be it 
you, Carl, some RT outsider....whoever best fits the task.
Henrik
25-May-2007
[2530]
I'm just afraid that "programming in the large" will not apply to 
the GUI.
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2531]
Yes - write some proposal. Don't even show it to me, Rebolek, just 
few selected ones - Ashley, Anton, Maxim, Henrik ... fair enough.
btiffin
25-May-2007
[2532]
FYI;  The informal Bob's Rules of Order time limit runs out on the 
REBOL User group

proposal tomorrow.  I think there is some consensus, and reading 
this it really looks

like a formalized Executive Summary would be beneficial to everybody. 
 Even if it

never gets read at RT, it'll let the community vent steam and brainstorm. 
 Expect 

an Agenda for the formation of a formal group on Saturday.  First 
meeting here on

Sunday-Monday-Tuesday.  I've tagged Bob's rule at 72 hours of 'floor' 
time,
(unless voted on and changed) after the organization forms.
Rebolek
25-May-2007
[2533]
because it's hard to harvest some comments to new VID when there's 
nothing on the table
Pekr
25-May-2007
[2534]
let them shortly review and discuss general direction ... once agreed 
upon, close the door with Cyphre, buy lots of pizza and don't come 
out, unless you are ready with first prototype :-)
Gabriele
25-May-2007
[2535]
how is this different from what i said in the beginning - i want 
people to look at my vid as soon as i have something to show and 
get their comments.