World: r3wp

Petr, don't forget though, that "decentralized" design is exactly 
what Carl is opposed to.

too much isolation of data or not enough isolation of data?

no, not centralised vs decentralised design, but the whole things. 
I miss division of tasks ...

Gabriele;  I agree.  As an end-user, a single (perhaps extensible) 
vision has always
been far more appealing to me than design by commitee bloat.

Rebolek: i have programmed a MUI like gui engine in AmigaE some 12 
years ago.

too much - well, not too much - just the whole idea - are we sure 
we want to let user choose, in what form he wants data being represented? 
I am not sure it is neede? Would you find it really usefull?

And Pekr;  If the design include points of extensibility, thats where 
"we" get to play.  :)

ok, so it's the same concern Carl has that it would be too complicated.

i can only answer that concern by writing a prototype. there's no 
way a "it won't be complicated" will convince Carl or you :)

Brian - misunderstood :-) decentralisation = decentralisation of 
tasks - someone does design, some group works on docs, some groups 
are rebol evangelists on internet, some group might help new users, 
etc., I don't want to bloat anything ;-)

not sure if complicated, but question to you - would you find the 
practical need to have different representation of data? I mean, 
as an app user?

Gabriele that's good. It's just that this is one thing that is nor 
adressed in current VID, RebGUI etc and it would be really great 
if new VID will have this from the begining. Take it just as a wish 
:)

petr, isn't that exactly what is happening? Carl works on design, 
some group will work on docs (DocBase), other groups will work on 
code (DevBase), other groups can be here helping users as they have 
always done

but you see, Carl has PITS embeded in his mind... the problem is 
that if you want power in a GUI at some point, some things need to 
be more extensive.  which can imply complexity.

Ok.  I'm all for that.  Sign me up for some grunt work...  :)

otherwise, we should just port current vid and add a few things in 
the dialect.

rebolek: i would prefer a simpler, more powerful approach than the 
one used in mui. however, probably mui is easier to understad to 
people (html tables even easier), so we'll need to stick to that.

Gabriele-  no, it is NOT happening. I believe you release R3 sooner 
than we might come familiar with all those needed systems. Has anyone 
discussed, e.g. if/how we allow localisation of docs? Etc.?

IIRC think carl really likes the simplicity and power of GLayout's 
proportional sizing engine.

its a prototype so yess the *code* has some ugly bits... but the 
layout concept is very agile, and makes tidy guis with little effort 
and understanding needed... its acutally much simpler than current 
vVID.

max, that's exactly what i did 12 years ago. no news to me. i wanted 
to try something new but that's not going to work so i won't.

And sorry Pekr;  I get my verbology wrong sometimes...  Wasn't meant 
as a diss.

I actually think, along with this heated debate, things are going 
to accelerate and

we are going to have more chance to get our hands dirty than any 
of us may be able
to handle.  It's going to great.

going to BE great.

Gabriele: I'm not trying to push MUI aprroach somehow, it's just 
that I'd like to see new VID to be localization-friendly

my point earlier was I'd like R3 to have time to actually try out 
different approaches, have them working code, let the community try 
out, maybe even create different propositions and take the time to 
use and have fun.

then the best parts of each idea usually really just pop up as *obvious*.

but having a june 30 date just allow a single track to move along 
so... I understand why/how you are approaching the whole thing... 
and yess I think you are courageous for asking openly here.

you just *knew* what was comming  ;-)

Maxim;  That can be good...but it can also be dangerous.  Everyone 
here is too smart
and has too many good ideas.  May become overwhelming.  :)

max, i hoped to prove carl wrong, but he seems to be right :P

hehe

Gabriele, team work depends on all aspects of the work to be teamed.

And I don't mean too smart in a bad way.  The computer IQ in this 
forum is off the scale

which is why Carl is right.

since Carl want's to retain control over the view .

just asking people about what they want obviously collides... everyone 
has different needs and POV.

I've always thought that everyone is *right* by default.

there is not team, there was no team. Team needs rules. To set rules 
you have to adhere. If you break the rules, you should be dismissed 
from team after some time. If ppl do adhere to rules, team has its 
sense ...

so its hard to merge the ideas, obviously.

Pekr, that is what I am saying.

but who choses the rules, who is right, who is wrong... bla bla bla.... 
you can end up with the same wars within anyways.

With Rebol, things are often aproached in non-organised, jumpy kind 
of way ... few questions, few months break, some doc, few months 
break, then release, which is even more different to what was agreed 
upon :-) just exagerrating, but you get the idea ...

why is why I thouhgt a more open, long term dev cycle would have 
been better.

Maxim - rules of the team ... ideas have no rules ;-)

people have ideas... let them prove them, if you will.

Gabriele should form rules, because he has most of the info:

Formal rules soon to be announced.  Membership voluntary of course. 
 Free flowing

'individual' code is also very valuable, but the Assembly vote is 
final in Robert's Rules
of Order.

the best things will stand out, IMHO, and ususally, there is a way 
to make them cooperative.

- guys, thing is as follows - Carl want's to release VID asap ... 
don't ask why, don't ask for the change ... ok, clear enough ... 
I will do prototype ... I need this or that from you ... I have the 
right to have final go. clear enough ...

liquid was implement in such a fashion... basically I took 3 engines 
and merged them.  each one was incompatible, but had great indivual 
traits which stood out...  so a bit of tought allowed me to merge 
about 120kb of code into 20k of code, and in all, it acutally does 
more than the 3 did own their own.