World: r3wp

the same contradiction than what is occuring here happened, but I 
got insight, and the final result allowed me to have a clear picture 
of what to propose to Carl.

let's prepare for division of our roles ....

and I am pretty sure the final will appeal to most who are working 
on module like api code.

Let the snowball start rolling down the hill...and we can either 
get bowled over or direct

it.  That may be our part.  Again I'm coming solely from a desire 
to be an 'end-user'.

my only wish for actual implementation team is - please don't release 
official R3, unless some of top community programmes could see the 
result. Anton even expressed his wish to be able to "influence" View 
kernel design things ... those are closed altogether ...

It seems to me that the main concern is that some programmers have 
been working on projects for several years that they cannot finish 
unless they are allowed to hook more directly into the guts of view. 
They are concerned that all the time they have put into their projects 
might go down the tube. Does that sum up what you guys are saying?

Louis - yes, and - some of guys are for years begging for suggestions 
in certain areas, not being sure those are being heard and implemented.

4 - 6 months ago I asked in one blog reaction, Carl to blog about 
the plan towards View itself. IIRC it was supposed to come, and that's 
it. Some things were not decided even at the time of devcon (e.g. 
if draw dialect will merge with effect one). View kernel development 
seems to be implemented with no certain vision - we just know we 
wanted richtext, and view being less resource hungry and faster in 
blitting :-)

Lets change that aspect then Pekr.  A formal group, with the associated 
sense of

authority...that may or may not be ignored, but it'll be 'authoritative' 
and hopefully

less ignorable.  But for Gabrieles immediate need...I say let the 
snowball roll  :)

My main general concern for the future - please improve the communication. 
Blog is fine, but one way channel - users ---> RT ...

Brian - I understand your motive for such group. I even understand, 
that it could work, but - there is one thing needed for sure - RT 
to respect such body. And to actually respect it for more than few 
months :-)

I am just not sure, if ppl here are prepared to respect it :-) It 
seems to me, that with Rebol, simple things are born faster than 
we brainstorm them :-)

what did this bring you?

1) I clearly feel (in most of people who post) that there is a sense 
of uselessness of the community that needs to be addressed.  I am 
not talking about specifics.  just a general sense of being ignored. 
  for my part, I expect it so am not bitter.  I just hope for the 
best, in any case I can already just use gobs and ignore view3, I 
have my engine pretty much finalised and working within an app.


2) communication FROM RT is insufficient.  having you as an official 
RT person will most probably change that, cause I regard you highly 
in your communication talents.  you genuinely want discussion  :-)


3) more specifically, people do not ONLY expect/want a PITS model 
for the gui,  

4) people want more access to internal without fighting,  


5) it seems to me that the community is not expecting a quick release 
of VID and some have expressed that they'd rather wait a bit for 
it than get something too simple.


6) there seems to be disapointment that RT will be feeding us the 
solution, I think after devcon I feel that a few people would have 
tought it would have been a bit more community driven, but then, 
that could be more my skewed vision.

That would have to be determined.  I say it's worth a shot.  It can't 
be any less 

effective than what we have today.  None of us can dicate to RT, 
just hope and
wish and dream, and maybe report (back and forth)  :)

But because of that nature, Rebol lived in the PITS area .... we 
are quickly done with ideas :-) That is fine ... but that is the 
paradox too - it lead us to situation, when we are not used to work 
on longer term things ... maybe the only one being rebol.org group, 
rebgui, and now rebolweek group - kudoz to those ppl.

I am often fascinated at how people forget about steel  :-)   ... 
its been there for what 5 years, and has steadily improved.  but 
just like RT I am one man army, so community is deficient  :-(

so I understand it too.

And I truly believe we are pretty lucky.  The blog may seem a little 
one-way, but Carl

does respond.  And though maybe not verbalized, those tidbits probably 
are having

an influence.  At least that's the impression I've been getting over 
the last few months of

my reinvolvement in the field...and it seems to be getting better 
everyday.  And I've 

discovered that unless you put in four hours a day...the amount of 
information generated
is impossible to keep up with.  :)

brian, have you applied to be the evangelist?

Pekr, re: long-term projects - actually Sintezar is in works from 
about 1998/99 (REBOL/Core 2.0 on 50MHz Amiga - but it had functional 
sound output that vastly outperformed today REBOL sound :-), so the 
oldest part of code is about 8 years old now (but still no need to 
rewrite :)

But I understand that sound synthesis in REBOL is very exotic niche 
with population about one to three ;)

you seem to be able to counter both pekr and my negativity quite 
well.  ;-)

(btiffin)

negativity = critique   ;-)

one of the oddities with REBOL world is that we are pretty close 
to Carl in general, in the sense where there are very few intermediates 
to Carl when one speaks about REBOL, so we all feel a bit like we 
have a say.

when you look at other platforms, even python, that connection does 
not exist.

it is far removed.

Yep.  :)

the difference I think is in how information flow to and back.  proximity 
removes the need for a lot of structure, yet it also has some drawbacks. 
 distance doesn't allow much to happen without structure and time.

the way I see it, we *feel* to much about REBOL because of that proximity.

I have applied.  And yep...most coders are far more removed from 
the designers....

brian, know that you have been promoted by me directly to Carl.  
I explained about your good natured humour and capable work habbits.

Well,  the graphic designer just showed up.  I gotta get to work. 
 It's "marketing day".
Well chatted gentlemen.

how you generally change the course of a discussion istelf in positive 
way.

Thanks Maxim...

Gabriele: . I post a 6 posted a 6 point list of things the discussion 
has brought about.  do what you want with it  :-)

Its possible next time, we should start with a more "specific" topic, 
so it doesn't stray to far... I think the main issue here was that 
there was no real direction at its outset.. it was mainly... ok, 
tell me anything... and it just flowed that way.


now that its out, its done.  we should now concentrate on specifics. 
  :-)

oops one "6" too many in my post... strange typo, sorry.

next time, it should start with:  "what do you guys thinkg about 
XXXXX"  then you will get real insight.

next time, it should start with:  "what do you guys thinkg about 
XXXXX"  then you will get real insight.

max, i have already copied your 6 points :)

I got Max's summary, and will watch this group for more. If you want 
me to collect yours, please post it in this color so I can find them 
easily.

See Max, we care. :-)

max, well, i wasn't looking for input today, since we have nothing 
to comment on yet. i just stated that i wanted to have input on vid 
as soon as i could show something to give input on... and this is 
the reaction i got :)

If you're color blind (as some of you may be), the color is called 
Request in the AltME color picker.

hehe, well exactly, you got comments on what we don't have yet  ;-)

I know you guys care.  which is why I took the time to write out 
the collection of points... you know it takes time to summarise such 
a discussion  ;-)

See, this is the kind of discussion that happens when I'm busy working 
:(

I would like to be a part of the early access group, but not for 
VID. My GUI experience is founded in quite different environments 
and my input about GUIs would be more along the lines of API cleanup 
and other low-level stuff. For the major design issues, I defer to 
Carl, Gabriele, Cyphre and the other capable people here - I trust 
your judgement.


I would like to help with some of the other parts of REBOL 3 though. 
My main interests are in language design, interoperability issues 
and platform integration, particularly Windows platforms and derivatives 
since that's what I need to use most of the time.

And rebcode? ;)

language design
 :)