World: r3wp

The trouble is, that just because we are not let in in the early 
state of development, we might miss the influence on what the new 
VID will all be about ....


Do you really, really want that? The only thing you'll get is "design 
by commitee" and slowing things down.

whereas nowadays we get "no comment" and similar results ...

you asked at one point how much the docs correspond to the state 
of VID, and I think they are revealing probably 60-70% of what is 
there now.

From my pov, I can already see some things, which are a bit disappointing. 
I represent userbase as any other potential user. And I can already 
imagine typical answer - "you can create your own GUI after all" 
:-)

my intention is not to harm the design, but have the possibility 
to eventually influence some decisions ....

having used VID3 for a bit now, I can tell you, it's SO EASY. it's 
amazingly simple, compared to the R2 VID. it's possible to do things 
in 10 lines of code that would require 500 lines of R2 VID code.

... of course for the good ...

but it's not done yet, so we'll wait a bit longer with the comments

I hope so, Henrik - I was nicely suprised by make-gobs dialect ...., 
but some minor syntax things look just weird to me :-)

well, I expected that first comes some "basic" architecture design, 
then comes styles. Of course, when we think more complex styles, 
we just may find out, that we need to change a design, that is ok 
....

make-gob isn't even ready for commenting internally yet. I haven't 
used it, so I don't even know what it can do.

It can help you, the style designer :-)

my concerns are very simple, but concrete. I can not agree e.g., 
how stylize escapes missing arguments, from right to left, that just 
seems crazy :-)

I'm sure we'll get around to those things when they become important.

for now, we'd like to build the house first, before discussing the 
color of the window curtains in the bathroom. :-)

but you should use good stick for your house's brick, or it will 
collapse later :-)

btw - looking at RebGUI docs, and thinking about VID2, I found out, 
that I like keywords very much (effect, font-size .... , on-click 
etc. in RebGUI). I hope that concept lives and is not replaced by 
awful with/options aproach, which burns you deep inside VID internals 
...

rename on-get-value to on-get-default .... When I first saw the two 
- on-get, and on-get-value, I could not find out, what on-get-value 
could be about. Just recently I read doc explaining it in one simple 
sentence. But - I dont want to read docs and I still want to be intuitively 
able to understand the meaning, if possible. And "default" immediatelly 
caught my eye. If you don't believe me, just run "source switch" 
and look what we already use in rebol :-)

but... on-get-value has nothing to do with "defaults"?

besides, I can see from your comments that the look-options system 
hasn't been documented yet.

no? it just return default value you wish to defaultly return, no? 
:-) Sorry for english :-)

as for doc writers:

no, it returns whatever value you want to return from within the 
face's spec block, when you invoke GET-FACE.

Let's not depreciate my points, if possible. I know that I may be 
harsh, but - I was main collumnist for Amiga Review for 4 years. 
In my past job, my boss used me to write some things for management 
= nice reading, about nothing, but noone dared to say anything against 
it :-) I mean - docs should be kind of smooth reading. What I currently 
think about docs (I already mentioned the good ones) is - they should 
read smoothly. They should not be references, but they should talk 
concepts ....

Currently reading docs (and I know they are supposed to change) is 
like reading a facts ... there is function xy, which does that. But 
the question of novice is - but why?

we are already internally talking about the shape of the documentation. 
right now, the important thing is that WE HAVE DOCS. that is opposed 
to some R2 docs that are NON-EXISTANT. fixing the flow to make it 
nicely readable comes later. this is just not a priority.

Mostly when I think about presentations or some docs, I try to imagine, 
what might typical user need to understand the issue. And also - 
what I needed to know, to finally get it too. that is just my suggestion. 
And that is why I liked R2 View engine doc from August 2005. Awesome 
work. I hope we can adapt to it ....

I don't agree that R2 does not have docs ...

E.g. - let's look into some VID reference Introduction. Some may 
find it vague, and saying nothing:


By their nature, graphical user interfaces (GUI) are more descriptive 
than they are functional. In REBOL, the Visual Interface Dialect 
(VID) provides an efficient method of describing GUIs. VID is implemented 
as a layer that rides on top of the REBOL/View graphical compositing 
system. VID provides shortcut expressions that are automatically 
translated into View objects and functions. You can seamlessly combine 
VID and View code and data for great power and flexibility.


Whereas for me, it s real jewel, as it introduces me into concept 
of relation of View and VID.

btw - some might remember, that some 4 months ago, I asked to be 
involved in the docs grop at least or to talk the marketing strategy. 
I know that it might seem being preliminary, while it is not ....

pekr, I think you are nitpicking way too much right now. We don't 
have the time to make pretty well-organized docs right now. Your 
input will be much more appropriate when R3 goes into beta, when 
docs are opened up and we have time to deal with this, OK?

Henrik - for you I might be nitpicking, but from my pov, it is just 
you, who is missinterpreting meaning of my requests. And that is 
maybe the difference between good developer (you) and mostly IT manager 
(me). I follow different patterns ...

you are requesting things that are completely low priority right 
now

Maybe the whole situation is just caused because we are very few. 
With larger community even my aproach might work as some ppl might 
work on docs in parallel ...

I think the whole situation is cause by you commenting on things 
that are not done. Perhaps it's a good idea to close the docs even 
further down now, so you can't see them anymore, so we'll at least 
have the piece and quiet required to finish them.

Henrik - and I find you latest remark very arrogant.

but that is not up to me

Pekr, I just want you to stop commenting on things that aren't done. 
Can't you see that?

And I want Alpha group to be extended by Alpha+ group, which could 
work on other things which might be needed sooner or later. There 
is lots of work on other fronts too. You would have not to think 
about how to write docs if others would write the docs, can't you 
see it? But then you would have to stop playing elite ....

I am off from that for now ...

I kind of see Henrik's point...How do you write docs for things that 
are not complete...ot just code but the actual conncepts of certain 
aspects do not seem to be naild down yet. How do write docs in this 
situation?

Pekr, just calm down, how can someone write full docs, when VID3 
is not yet finished? Can't you wait a bit more? Where's the problem? 
Don't base your assumptions on some unfinished docs, I know you're 
eager to get R3, but, please, wait until it's done.

How does the coder convey to the docs writer what to write if he 
does not know waht the code is going to do?

Pekr, we _will_ be getting back to these things you mention. it's 
just not the right time yet. There is plenty of progress, but still 
plenty to do in terms of code, where we can't just write docs out 
of thin air.

and Pekr: VID3 kicks ass. :-)

too bad the url is so easy to figure out, didn't you know it, you 
had nothing to complain about ;)

amacleod - there aparently is more things that are complete - you 
saw the mention docs are some 30% behind? And have you ever been 
in process of writing docs? I mean - in the team? Do you think that 
ppl only wait for the work to be 100% finished? Some concepts HAVE 
to be already in place. I prefer to rewrite/restylize docs instead 
of writing them in a hurry ...

Rebolek - you are far from the truth - I don't want to get R3 just 
because of sake of having it ...

I am more interested in the marketing process  - now read that - 
http://www.rebol.com/help-wanted.html... do you think that process 
should not run in parallel?

apply for the job then