World: r3wp

Pekr was supposed to be the community representative to liase with 
him.

so, in the end, if Carl is quiet, people complain, if he talks, people 
complain :-)

Petr is someone else with criticism who was rolled into the group. 
But he can't be responsible

No, we just ask that any promises are backed up

Personally I think that Henrik's fears are mistaken.

I didn't know that you and Cyphre were unavailable in August and 
September, but it explains that there seems to have been very little 
tangible progress

i think it was stated clearly that the "july release" if you want 
to call it that way would not have been complete. there has been 
a delay in that it went from 15 july to basically mid august. but 
at that point, Carl has been convinced that it was not a good idea 
to release an uncomplete product. so that's what it is - saying that 
there's nothing does not help. what was supposed to be released on 
july is there already. it was just been asked not to release it because 
it is not complete.

If users here get to try alpha out and ask questions, there's no 
compunction on you to answer them.

I'm also unaware of any reversal of decision on releasing early. 
This is the problem: we are kept in the dark about what's really 
going on

The rebolweek blog that was posted of the R3 progress showed that 
things were slow

5th Sept ... new View system!

damn, already a month ago? :-)

Gabriele, you're still speaking from your own point of view. Carl 
needs to start imagining our point of view. We have nothing but broken 
promises, regardless of how much the man behind the curtain has

I remember when Rebol was first released .. now that was alpha!

no console history, no ability to copy the console

is this going to be worse than that??

no. we already have console history, so it's better than that.

Which is my point.

right, we should define when to release, depending on whether we 
have console history or not :-)

If I may offer some experience from our release-early, release-often 
Syllable project: we make semi-weekly development builds, even between 
our alpha releases every three or four months. I have been amazed 
at the download peaks we get when we announce a release, while the 
weekly builds were almost it already

is that the current alpha appears to be more adanced than the first 
alphas were when they were released ~9 years ago

People understand it very well when you say: this is an official 
release, and that is a development release

Carl ..or whoever is advising him, underestimates us

Yeah. I understand all the arguments given. The problem is, when 
you open yourself for feedback, you get a lot of idiots, if I may 
say so. But this obscures the fact that the silent majority are reasonable 
humans

For our download numbers, I'm also amazed at how little feedback 
we actually get, even about things that we know are broken. Often, 
we try to push people to report stuff we don't know yet, but they 
assume that they shouldn't speak up about a non-finished release

such a depressing conversation

It is

Well, I've posted my view point as expressed here on Rebolweek blog.

Very balanced summary; thanks for that

Kaj, if you just want to create simple forms, I don't know, why you 
cannot use R2. I'm still developing for R2 and don't have any problem 
if the R3 will come a few months later. And I think, you can simply 
ask Gabriele to get access to R3-alpha world and help if you can.

R2 is a monolithic, closed product that doesn't integrate on a platform 
level. I need the R3 libraries, even if it does a lot less than R2

Then ask Gabriele and you can help with Linux porting.

This is the most important strategic innovation of R3, and it's long 
overdue

I did. It doesn't seem to be time yet, so the matter comes back to 
planning

Kaj - you should know that I strongly disagree with Henrik's aproach. 
Although I have total trust to his developer's skills, I would probably 
fire him as a marketing responsible person :-)

that is because Pekr doesn't develop software from the bottom up... 
:-)

And you should also know, that for few days, I am creating strong 
push to take different strategy. I already proposed it to Carl, talked 
privately with him. Gregg seems to agree with me too. I suggested 
to create CONCRETE release strategy and product feature freezing 
plan. I think, that psychologically, userbase will accept e.g. Christmas 
time with R3/Core like release = nearly R2/Core compatible product, 
no modules, no tasks, no unicode, but ppl could bet it would come. 
From that point, we could continue ...

Yes, Henrik, I am mostly top-down guy, who mostly talks, not doing 
any development at all :-)

I think basically that's why we disagree. Really. :-)

Hey, I always see myself alternating between phases of top-down and 
bottom-up planning. I guess neither of you can follow me. :-) You 
have my support, Petr

this debate convinces me even more of my position :-)

and why developers and salesmen do not get along well

See, you don't see the other side

I don't want RT becoming another Amiga Inc. And I will not move my 
opinion position a milimetter. Maybe I even started to being new 
marketing guy for RT! For me it is like the last call. If things 
don't work out, I don't trust RT, REBOL, whatever related anymore.

Exactly my feeling. It's eary

I do see the other side. The other side caused me quite a lot of 
trouble on some projects. I'm not going to talk about it, but suffice 
it to say, it had to do with prematurely released deadlines.

I've been there. But the other side has the same (or reverse) problems 
with us

These are tech people responding to failed promises:

http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=18714

Last time I strictly expressed my opinion on RT's not sufficient 
communication skills, it nearly felt as I ordered Carl to update 
his blog. Reichart jumped in with disagreement, only stating the 
group is doing good progress, and then he left this group. But once 
again - I will not move a millimeter!