World: r3wp

no console history, no ability to copy the console

is this going to be worse than that??

no. we already have console history, so it's better than that.

Which is my point.

right, we should define when to release, depending on whether we 
have console history or not :-)

If I may offer some experience from our release-early, release-often 
Syllable project: we make semi-weekly development builds, even between 
our alpha releases every three or four months. I have been amazed 
at the download peaks we get when we announce a release, while the 
weekly builds were almost it already

is that the current alpha appears to be more adanced than the first 
alphas were when they were released ~9 years ago

People understand it very well when you say: this is an official 
release, and that is a development release

Carl ..or whoever is advising him, underestimates us

Yeah. I understand all the arguments given. The problem is, when 
you open yourself for feedback, you get a lot of idiots, if I may 
say so. But this obscures the fact that the silent majority are reasonable 
humans

For our download numbers, I'm also amazed at how little feedback 
we actually get, even about things that we know are broken. Often, 
we try to push people to report stuff we don't know yet, but they 
assume that they shouldn't speak up about a non-finished release

such a depressing conversation

It is

Well, I've posted my view point as expressed here on Rebolweek blog.

Very balanced summary; thanks for that

Kaj, if you just want to create simple forms, I don't know, why you 
cannot use R2. I'm still developing for R2 and don't have any problem 
if the R3 will come a few months later. And I think, you can simply 
ask Gabriele to get access to R3-alpha world and help if you can.

R2 is a monolithic, closed product that doesn't integrate on a platform 
level. I need the R3 libraries, even if it does a lot less than R2

Then ask Gabriele and you can help with Linux porting.

This is the most important strategic innovation of R3, and it's long 
overdue

I did. It doesn't seem to be time yet, so the matter comes back to 
planning

Kaj - you should know that I strongly disagree with Henrik's aproach. 
Although I have total trust to his developer's skills, I would probably 
fire him as a marketing responsible person :-)

that is because Pekr doesn't develop software from the bottom up... 
:-)

And you should also know, that for few days, I am creating strong 
push to take different strategy. I already proposed it to Carl, talked 
privately with him. Gregg seems to agree with me too. I suggested 
to create CONCRETE release strategy and product feature freezing 
plan. I think, that psychologically, userbase will accept e.g. Christmas 
time with R3/Core like release = nearly R2/Core compatible product, 
no modules, no tasks, no unicode, but ppl could bet it would come. 
From that point, we could continue ...

Yes, Henrik, I am mostly top-down guy, who mostly talks, not doing 
any development at all :-)

I think basically that's why we disagree. Really. :-)

Hey, I always see myself alternating between phases of top-down and 
bottom-up planning. I guess neither of you can follow me. :-) You 
have my support, Petr

this debate convinces me even more of my position :-)

and why developers and salesmen do not get along well

See, you don't see the other side

I don't want RT becoming another Amiga Inc. And I will not move my 
opinion position a milimetter. Maybe I even started to being new 
marketing guy for RT! For me it is like the last call. If things 
don't work out, I don't trust RT, REBOL, whatever related anymore.

Exactly my feeling. It's eary

I do see the other side. The other side caused me quite a lot of 
trouble on some projects. I'm not going to talk about it, but suffice 
it to say, it had to do with prematurely released deadlines.

I've been there. But the other side has the same (or reverse) problems 
with us

These are tech people responding to failed promises:

http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=18714

Last time I strictly expressed my opinion on RT's not sufficient 
communication skills, it nearly felt as I ordered Carl to update 
his blog. Reichart jumped in with disagreement, only stating the 
group is doing good progress, and then he left this group. But once 
again - I will not move a millimeter!

Kaj, it's ugly with A. Inc. I'm not even sure that real tech people 
are involved. They have ridiculed themselves beyond comprehension.

That's exactly the road that RT is on

almost as much as SCO.

If RT will listen to what I say, I can lead them thru :-)

Don't be fooled because the few of us here are the last people remaining

remaining? were there ever more people?

I have strong faith in what I say and usually I am right, even if 
sometimes my suggestions might sound as too strict.

but there is even less ppl. And I can also notice the interest is 
withering.

Where are ppl like - Steve Shireman, Doc, Cyphre, Gabriele, Ladislav? 
Working privately, even for REBOL related business, but they are 
not here. Well, Gabriele is here often, others are not. Volker, Anton?

I would let it wither. I think people will return, once R3 comes 
out.

if a company produces something interesting, people will come, even 
if they've left it before. that's my theory.

I would like to believe it. I really hope it is just like ppl are 
doing other things, and once R3 is released, they suddenly come up 
from various holes and that REBOL will once again become vital point 
of interest ... but I am scared that the momentum is vanishing ...

Amiga Inc. generated quite a lot of interest before the first release 
of AmigaAnywhere, because of the Tao Group technology. The technology 
was interesting, but it was an "R2"; closed and hard to develop for, 
sparse documentation, etc. but impressive to look at. Today they 
have squandered their opportunity window, because their technology 
was really depending on such a window. But if they produce something 
new, something incredible, of course I'd be interested, and so will 
many other people.

it's the same thing with REBOL. "oh, I liked the language a lot, 
but I couldn't do XYZ." well, if you can do XYZ now, maybe you'll 
be interested again. I think most people who have left REBOL saw 
it as something with great potential and great fun to use. They won't 
forget that. It'll be easy to regain momentum with these people.