World: r3wp

such a depressing conversation

It is

Well, I've posted my view point as expressed here on Rebolweek blog.

Very balanced summary; thanks for that

Kaj, if you just want to create simple forms, I don't know, why you 
cannot use R2. I'm still developing for R2 and don't have any problem 
if the R3 will come a few months later. And I think, you can simply 
ask Gabriele to get access to R3-alpha world and help if you can.

R2 is a monolithic, closed product that doesn't integrate on a platform 
level. I need the R3 libraries, even if it does a lot less than R2

Then ask Gabriele and you can help with Linux porting.

This is the most important strategic innovation of R3, and it's long 
overdue

I did. It doesn't seem to be time yet, so the matter comes back to 
planning

Kaj - you should know that I strongly disagree with Henrik's aproach. 
Although I have total trust to his developer's skills, I would probably 
fire him as a marketing responsible person :-)

that is because Pekr doesn't develop software from the bottom up... 
:-)

And you should also know, that for few days, I am creating strong 
push to take different strategy. I already proposed it to Carl, talked 
privately with him. Gregg seems to agree with me too. I suggested 
to create CONCRETE release strategy and product feature freezing 
plan. I think, that psychologically, userbase will accept e.g. Christmas 
time with R3/Core like release = nearly R2/Core compatible product, 
no modules, no tasks, no unicode, but ppl could bet it would come. 
From that point, we could continue ...

Yes, Henrik, I am mostly top-down guy, who mostly talks, not doing 
any development at all :-)

I think basically that's why we disagree. Really. :-)

Hey, I always see myself alternating between phases of top-down and 
bottom-up planning. I guess neither of you can follow me. :-) You 
have my support, Petr

this debate convinces me even more of my position :-)

and why developers and salesmen do not get along well

See, you don't see the other side

I don't want RT becoming another Amiga Inc. And I will not move my 
opinion position a milimetter. Maybe I even started to being new 
marketing guy for RT! For me it is like the last call. If things 
don't work out, I don't trust RT, REBOL, whatever related anymore.

Exactly my feeling. It's eary

I do see the other side. The other side caused me quite a lot of 
trouble on some projects. I'm not going to talk about it, but suffice 
it to say, it had to do with prematurely released deadlines.

I've been there. But the other side has the same (or reverse) problems 
with us

These are tech people responding to failed promises:

http://osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=18714

Last time I strictly expressed my opinion on RT's not sufficient 
communication skills, it nearly felt as I ordered Carl to update 
his blog. Reichart jumped in with disagreement, only stating the 
group is doing good progress, and then he left this group. But once 
again - I will not move a millimeter!

Kaj, it's ugly with A. Inc. I'm not even sure that real tech people 
are involved. They have ridiculed themselves beyond comprehension.

That's exactly the road that RT is on

almost as much as SCO.

If RT will listen to what I say, I can lead them thru :-)

Don't be fooled because the few of us here are the last people remaining

remaining? were there ever more people?

I have strong faith in what I say and usually I am right, even if 
sometimes my suggestions might sound as too strict.

but there is even less ppl. And I can also notice the interest is 
withering.

Where are ppl like - Steve Shireman, Doc, Cyphre, Gabriele, Ladislav? 
Working privately, even for REBOL related business, but they are 
not here. Well, Gabriele is here often, others are not. Volker, Anton?

I would let it wither. I think people will return, once R3 comes 
out.

if a company produces something interesting, people will come, even 
if they've left it before. that's my theory.

I would like to believe it. I really hope it is just like ppl are 
doing other things, and once R3 is released, they suddenly come up 
from various holes and that REBOL will once again become vital point 
of interest ... but I am scared that the momentum is vanishing ...

Amiga Inc. generated quite a lot of interest before the first release 
of AmigaAnywhere, because of the Tao Group technology. The technology 
was interesting, but it was an "R2"; closed and hard to develop for, 
sparse documentation, etc. but impressive to look at. Today they 
have squandered their opportunity window, because their technology 
was really depending on such a window. But if they produce something 
new, something incredible, of course I'd be interested, and so will 
many other people.

it's the same thing with REBOL. "oh, I liked the language a lot, 
but I couldn't do XYZ." well, if you can do XYZ now, maybe you'll 
be interested again. I think most people who have left REBOL saw 
it as something with great potential and great fun to use. They won't 
forget that. It'll be easy to regain momentum with these people.

Henrik; I have to disagree again.  I had a friend that saved up for 
years to buy a really nice BMW motorcycle.  He was so excited.  Then 
come delivery day he was told he had to wait.  For two months he 
was told "maybe tomorrow".  Then when it was delivered and I helped 
him load it on my truck, I could see in his eyes that he just didn't 
care anymore.  He road that bike like it was something to be tolerated, 
not enjoyed.

Amiga Inc. will never do such a thing any more. I'm not exactly sure 
what its current purpose is, but it has one and it's not technology 
development

Motorcycles are not software.

It was the disappointment of "maybe tomorrow" for too many days. 
 It just sucked all the joy out of the experience for him...something 
that he never got back.

People come back in droves all the time. Look at Apple how they lost 
themselves in the 90's and now are back again, more popular than 
ever. A Danish IT company here was widely criticized for extremely 
poor customer support and lost a lot of customers. They turned around 
and people came back.

Look at Linux. Maybe you won't install Ubuntu as your main desktop 
this time around, but maybe in a year. It's lurking in the background 
and you'll make the jump to it when you want to.

I'm not sure if the REBOL community has contracted, but I suspect 
so. When I joined five years ago, there was a lot of activity, but 
it has mostly gone downhill since then

There' s no publicity any more, no books for example. And it's a 
different world now: open source languages have taken over

it doesn't matter in the long run.

That's my point: REBOL is in grave danger of not mattering in the 
long run

it never really mattered in the first place, so what's to lose?

I can't find myself in such a defaitistic outlook. REBOL is a great, 
fundamental advancement in technology that would be awful to loose. 
Like that BMW