World: r3wp

a development tool is useless without developers

it would help if the developers all wanted the same things in the 
same time frame ... but they don't ;)

It's like that millionaire quiz program on tv .. the audience usually 
gets it right

I can tell them what is important to me, but I can't tell them slice 
core off first and then work on view - only they know enough to make 
those calls.

Ashley - sure we do - we want it all now.. *smile*

not always, but usually

Now imagine that most developers use core and web servers, they will 
want http(s) before they want VID

but who's to know?  Unless they ask.

Our input is important but as a developer I know the best path to 
get to the finish of my project, not the users waiting for it.

which is why developers need managers - to correct them of such ideas 
<BG>

As both developer and manager I can say I have problems with myself 
sometimes...

the developer may know technically what is best ... but they need 
to communicate the reasons

Now Gabriele says he wants to concentrate on VID ( which was only 
going to take a few days ) because it was hard and pop was easy.

That doesn't seem a technical reason to me.

BTW, I have no interest in testing R3 .. no time. I'm playing the 
devil's advocate here.

I do not have enough information to make an informed decision on 
something like that, part of why we need more visibility but also 
why we need to pull back from "telling" RT what should be done.

we haven't even started telling RT yet

Does anyone know of any open source project that has suffered from 
too many developers???

It sure sounds like it to me?  The frustrations put here are of the 
do this do that nature which I don't find as productive as they could 
be.

I would say most of them myself but that is just personal opinion. 
*smile*

interesting .. most of the projects I see, there are so few contributors

Ah, sorry didn't follow.  The ones that had too many suffered but 
yes many don't have nearly enough.

we did have the previous vid debacle where it seemed egos got in 
the way, and we had a proliferation of resizing schemes

VID is much more visible than pop. For some people, the fact that 
REBOL has a simple declarative GUI is the *only* reason they noticed 
and subsequently use REBOL. I think the focus on VID is the right 
call.

excepting VID is still incomplete after how many years??

which is why we have RebGUI :)

Anyway, I guess this is all religious talk

Well, it's actually perfect for trying to bag up as priorities and 
get them sent to Pekr and user.r.  Don't worry about having a voice, 
we are attempting to start a funnel channel.  As Graham says, the 
majority usually rides the top of the bell curve, and if that information 
can be summarized, it can't hurt.  No actual guarantee of it helping 
but it can't hurt and it's bound to influence to some degree or other.

Graham, if the audience usually gets it right, why isn't the audience 
making R3? :-)

Graham, even if most developers wanted HTTP first, keep in mind that 
RT has specific goals to reach, because it's a company with investors 
and eventually products or services to sell.

rgaither - stop taking excuses! :-) If RT can't manage it themselves, 
someone needs to tell them, what to do ...

as for R3, the release seems to be managed, but honestly, I would 
not allow Gabriele to define, what is important ;-)

and I wouldn't let Pekr define what's important either :-)

just a joke. :-)

that is allright with me, if you ask :-)

I don't take it personally. I am just used to what I do with my daily 
job - define strategy, and path to lead the team to final result. 
I can quickly adapt to other solution, if it makes sense ...

If you would ask RT to have guy(s) to define their marketing aproach, 
they should use Robert + me (eventually :-), but developers would 
not have a say here ...

developers would not have a say here
 <--- that would terrify me. it's why I work usually alone. :-)

yes, typical model - developers hating marketing dept. messing with 
the product and its strategy :-)

yes, that's how Commodore died. :-)

we are not there yet. Let's wait for RT to be bought by MS. Then 
we can ruin MS. Then finally Carl can resurrect the Amiga :-)

I feel the discussion is straying away from the issue now. I, for 
one, do not want to tell RT what to do; I just want them to inform 
us what to do. I have full technical confidence in them, but the 
false promises must stop

The discussion about what developers and managers are unable to do 
is bogus and just stereotyping. This is an individual issue. There 
are great managers, and great developers who are perfectly capable 
of management

But it's clear that the R3 schedule and its community are not being 
managed well so far

Exactly!

;-)

I don't define what is important, but I happen to know because I'm 
building it and so I am told. You're free to keep your eyes closed. 
:)

We heard you, but you don't seem to hear us

let's wait what Carl comes up this week with ...

I mean - I don't expect any release, but maybe some decision ....

I say "maybe", because I can't speak for Carl.