World: r3wp

we did have the previous vid debacle where it seemed egos got in 
the way, and we had a proliferation of resizing schemes

VID is much more visible than pop. For some people, the fact that 
REBOL has a simple declarative GUI is the *only* reason they noticed 
and subsequently use REBOL. I think the focus on VID is the right 
call.

excepting VID is still incomplete after how many years??

which is why we have RebGUI :)

Anyway, I guess this is all religious talk

Well, it's actually perfect for trying to bag up as priorities and 
get them sent to Pekr and user.r.  Don't worry about having a voice, 
we are attempting to start a funnel channel.  As Graham says, the 
majority usually rides the top of the bell curve, and if that information 
can be summarized, it can't hurt.  No actual guarantee of it helping 
but it can't hurt and it's bound to influence to some degree or other.

Graham, if the audience usually gets it right, why isn't the audience 
making R3? :-)

Graham, even if most developers wanted HTTP first, keep in mind that 
RT has specific goals to reach, because it's a company with investors 
and eventually products or services to sell.

rgaither - stop taking excuses! :-) If RT can't manage it themselves, 
someone needs to tell them, what to do ...

as for R3, the release seems to be managed, but honestly, I would 
not allow Gabriele to define, what is important ;-)

and I wouldn't let Pekr define what's important either :-)

just a joke. :-)

that is allright with me, if you ask :-)

I don't take it personally. I am just used to what I do with my daily 
job - define strategy, and path to lead the team to final result. 
I can quickly adapt to other solution, if it makes sense ...

If you would ask RT to have guy(s) to define their marketing aproach, 
they should use Robert + me (eventually :-), but developers would 
not have a say here ...

developers would not have a say here
 <--- that would terrify me. it's why I work usually alone. :-)

yes, typical model - developers hating marketing dept. messing with 
the product and its strategy :-)

yes, that's how Commodore died. :-)

we are not there yet. Let's wait for RT to be bought by MS. Then 
we can ruin MS. Then finally Carl can resurrect the Amiga :-)

I feel the discussion is straying away from the issue now. I, for 
one, do not want to tell RT what to do; I just want them to inform 
us what to do. I have full technical confidence in them, but the 
false promises must stop

The discussion about what developers and managers are unable to do 
is bogus and just stereotyping. This is an individual issue. There 
are great managers, and great developers who are perfectly capable 
of management

But it's clear that the R3 schedule and its community are not being 
managed well so far

Exactly!

;-)

I don't define what is important, but I happen to know because I'm 
building it and so I am told. You're free to keep your eyes closed. 
:)

We heard you, but you don't seem to hear us

let's wait what Carl comes up this week with ...

I mean - I don't expect any release, but maybe some decision ....

I say "maybe", because I can't speak for Carl.

I'd like to try at least an equivalent of /Base to see at least how 
the core of the language has changed.  This is where I think all 
the transition pains/revelations for developers are going to be.

Waiting for VID (a feature I'm not waiting for) is at the expense 
of getting paws on all the new language features (which I am most 
certainly looking forward to).

Everyone;  Send a note to Pekr regarding either technical or emotional 
concerns (read as ANY concerns/kudos/ideas).  We are hoping to start 
arming him with raw data for reporting to RT.  Our chats here are 
not reaching as far as their potential.  Treat Petr as the User Advocate 
... it's in his REBOL job description now.  :)

:-)

I should note that it is a bit preliminary. RT did not accepted me 
as a community representative. It is just that I chat with Carl from 
time to time and he seems to listen to some ideas. Not just mine 
ideas, but from other ones too.

I would not overestimate my abilities :-)

what you guys seem to not want to understand is that delaying VID 
may be good for you but it *hurts* RT. so, well, it ends up hurting 
you too in the end. talking does not change that simple fact.

I think what we're asking is to open it up so we can help.

Weell, how should we be able to understand something that's never 
been told?

All I'm saying is this: communication pays in the long run.

I think that Ingo is right. Using Gabriele's aproach noone would 
ever know, what is happening ;-) Ppl would  be willing more more 
easily, if there would be more blogs articles than one in three months 
;-)

By Blog entry, we aren't asking for a crafter piece of literature. 
 Just a heads up on direction changes and very quick progress statement. 
 One or two sentences every couple of weeks would likely due the 
job.

crafter = crafted

I, for one, am not suggesting to delay VID, I (and others) just want 
to know what is possible with the new iteration of the core language 
(and no, I don't mean the bullet-point feature list).  If there's 
bugs or no VID at this point, so be it  -- the perfectionism seems 
to be alienating the 'have-nots' here.

(if not alienating, at least frustrating)

[I] just want to know what is possible with the new iteration of 
the core language <--- I think people will be willing to answer questions 
on that. Will that be good enough for the next few days?

Fireside was delayed BTW. Carls says most of the work except a few 
forms is done. He hoped that it would come up sometime today, so 
let's see about that in a few hours.

As for Core, Chris might be disappointed. RAW tcp plus http is there 
IIRC (async), but not other protocols. Other than that, the core 
is pretty much funcional. I just can't stand default Windows console, 
someone should shoot MS developers for that piece of crap :-)

Isn't there better shell, which could be integrated instead of Windows 
one? Will have to wait for PowerShell in Vista SP1 :-)

I'm not looking for protocols.  I want to know how namespaces work, 
perhaps some of the dialect capabilities and the new datatypes that 
are already implemented.

Essentially, the language changes.