World: r3wp

developers would not have a say here
 <--- that would terrify me. it's why I work usually alone. :-)

yes, typical model - developers hating marketing dept. messing with 
the product and its strategy :-)

yes, that's how Commodore died. :-)

we are not there yet. Let's wait for RT to be bought by MS. Then 
we can ruin MS. Then finally Carl can resurrect the Amiga :-)

I feel the discussion is straying away from the issue now. I, for 
one, do not want to tell RT what to do; I just want them to inform 
us what to do. I have full technical confidence in them, but the 
false promises must stop

The discussion about what developers and managers are unable to do 
is bogus and just stereotyping. This is an individual issue. There 
are great managers, and great developers who are perfectly capable 
of management

But it's clear that the R3 schedule and its community are not being 
managed well so far

Exactly!

;-)

I don't define what is important, but I happen to know because I'm 
building it and so I am told. You're free to keep your eyes closed. 
:)

We heard you, but you don't seem to hear us

let's wait what Carl comes up this week with ...

I mean - I don't expect any release, but maybe some decision ....

I say "maybe", because I can't speak for Carl.

I'd like to try at least an equivalent of /Base to see at least how 
the core of the language has changed.  This is where I think all 
the transition pains/revelations for developers are going to be.

Waiting for VID (a feature I'm not waiting for) is at the expense 
of getting paws on all the new language features (which I am most 
certainly looking forward to).

Everyone;  Send a note to Pekr regarding either technical or emotional 
concerns (read as ANY concerns/kudos/ideas).  We are hoping to start 
arming him with raw data for reporting to RT.  Our chats here are 
not reaching as far as their potential.  Treat Petr as the User Advocate 
... it's in his REBOL job description now.  :)

:-)

I should note that it is a bit preliminary. RT did not accepted me 
as a community representative. It is just that I chat with Carl from 
time to time and he seems to listen to some ideas. Not just mine 
ideas, but from other ones too.

I would not overestimate my abilities :-)

what you guys seem to not want to understand is that delaying VID 
may be good for you but it *hurts* RT. so, well, it ends up hurting 
you too in the end. talking does not change that simple fact.

I think what we're asking is to open it up so we can help.

Weell, how should we be able to understand something that's never 
been told?

All I'm saying is this: communication pays in the long run.

I think that Ingo is right. Using Gabriele's aproach noone would 
ever know, what is happening ;-) Ppl would  be willing more more 
easily, if there would be more blogs articles than one in three months 
;-)

By Blog entry, we aren't asking for a crafter piece of literature. 
 Just a heads up on direction changes and very quick progress statement. 
 One or two sentences every couple of weeks would likely due the 
job.

crafter = crafted

I, for one, am not suggesting to delay VID, I (and others) just want 
to know what is possible with the new iteration of the core language 
(and no, I don't mean the bullet-point feature list).  If there's 
bugs or no VID at this point, so be it  -- the perfectionism seems 
to be alienating the 'have-nots' here.

(if not alienating, at least frustrating)

[I] just want to know what is possible with the new iteration of 
the core language <--- I think people will be willing to answer questions 
on that. Will that be good enough for the next few days?

Fireside was delayed BTW. Carls says most of the work except a few 
forms is done. He hoped that it would come up sometime today, so 
let's see about that in a few hours.

As for Core, Chris might be disappointed. RAW tcp plus http is there 
IIRC (async), but not other protocols. Other than that, the core 
is pretty much funcional. I just can't stand default Windows console, 
someone should shoot MS developers for that piece of crap :-)

Isn't there better shell, which could be integrated instead of Windows 
one? Will have to wait for PowerShell in Vista SP1 :-)

I'm not looking for protocols.  I want to know how namespaces work, 
perhaps some of the dialect capabilities and the new datatypes that 
are already implemented.

Essentially, the language changes.

Well, there is the new DELECT function for different types of parsing.

Yep.

I've read of the changes, I want to try them.

I spent a long time learning the intricacies of R2 (aside from basic 
primers, it was my first language).  I don't suppose it will take 
as long to pick up R3, but hammering away at the console, figuring 
how different approaches work, interact, all the subtleties -- it'd 
be useful to learn sooner than later.  And given that R2 changed 
constantly as I was learning, I have no problem assuming R3/Core 
now may not be R3/Core of the actual release.

.

Post(s) that follow are the R3 Alpha version of the format function 
prepped for R2; at this stage, it could probably be called pad or 
align.  I've split the header from the function.

REBOL [
    Title: "Formatting dialect"
    Author: "Carl Sassenrath"
    Date: 01-Jun-2007
    Version: 2.99
    File: %format.r

    Purpose: "Simple, powerful string formatting; well padding at least"
    History: [
        01-Jul-2007 2.99 "Carl" "first R3 alpha"
        02-Sep-2007 2.99 "Bluey" "prepped for R2"
    ]

    Comments: {R3 format will be more powerful, this is a teaser version}
    Usage: {
        format rules values
          /pad padding-character; defaults to space
        rules include the following dialect messages;

          integer!              sets width left aligned (trailing spaces)

          negative integer!     sets width right aligned (leading spaces)

          string!           inserts the string based on position in rules

          char!          inserts the character based on position in rules

        rules can be a single message or a block! of formatting messages;

        rules can also be a word evaluating to a single or message block!
        Examples:
          format 5 12 == "12   "
          format -5 12 == "   12"

          format/pad [5 "---" -5] [12345678 1] "0" == "12345---00001]
    }
]

format: make function! [
    "Format a string according to the format dialect."
    rules {A block in the format dialect. E.g. [10 -10 #"-" 4]}
    values
    /pad p
    /local out val
][
    p: any [p #" "]
    unless block? rules [rules: reduce [rules]]
    unless block? values [values: reduce [values]]
    val: 0
    foreach item rules [
        if word? item [item: get item]
        val: val + switch/default type?/word item [
            integer! [abs item]
            string! [length? item]
            char! [1]
        ] [0]
    ]
    out: make string! val
    insert/dup out p val
    foreach rule rules [
        if word? rule [rule: get rule]
        switch type?/word rule [
            integer! [
                val: first values
                values: next values
                pad: rule
                if negative? rule [
                    val: form :val
                    rule: negate rule
                    pad: rule - length? val
                    if positive? pad [out: skip out pad]
                    pad: length? val
                ]
                change out val
                out: skip out pad
            ]
            string! [out: change out rule]
            char! [out: change out rule]
        ]
    ]
    if not tail? values [append out values]
    head out
]

printf: make function! [
    "Formatted print."
    fmt "Format"
    val "Value or block of values"
][
    print format fmt val
]

Rats;  I missed the Rights: Copyright 2007 REBOL Technologies in 
there...

This does not look very well thought. It does not solve the issue 
with floating and decimal! numbers.

Chris: that's exactly why i've been saying all the time that we should 
just release whatever the state, instead of doing a feature complete 
"core" for xmas, which would only hurt RT and not help people here.

Nope it's a step toward an end I do believe.  I like it as it allows 
for padding and alignment, but it's not the real format dialect yet, 
afaik.

sqlab; I'm smiling as I type this, so...

Psst, don't complain too loud or I might get cut off from showing 
off non-production sanctioned versions of functions.  I don't think 
the wait is going to be much longer but I feel for rebol trenchers 
and think the community deserves to see some of what is going on, 
so I asked to release a few mezzanines.


I was hoping it might motivate a rebol or two to expand on it, and 
reinforce the belief that community involvement is not only going 
to be a good thing, but a great thing.  Plus it's a good function 
for what is does imho.

Gabriele - you constantly interpret it incorrectly. There was NO 
selection between Core for X-Mass and release ASAP as-is. Core for 
X-Mass was alternative to DON'T release at all, unless everything 
finished.

hopefully that will not matter soon.

Hmm, my post looks a little weird coming out after Gabriele's.  I 
was in the midst of typing and staring down at the keyboard.  Sorry 
Gabriele;  the abrupt Nope that started my post wasn't meant in response 
to yours.  It was meant for the ...does not solve...