World: r3wp

Petr; ??  what design change would you make to LNS?

Pekr,  I think you are just comparing it too much with Rugby.

Conceptually I think it's pretty solid.  The implementation may need 
a dusting over, but it has not even been advertised as ready for 
prime time yet.  All good things ...

Henrik - it will change - its upper (user) layer is hardly acceptable 
for me....

Commands being just a parse code is plain wrong.

When Carl asked me about VID3, I posted my objectives to the VID 
group, and to him. Few days later I needed to study, if Rebservices 
would be good for our kiosk advert system. It could be, but I refuse 
to work with it, if it does not change. It is difficult to use, the 
layering has to change. And Carl agreed to some extent. Expect some 
changes to it in the summer months.

<aside and joking>

Anyone that is getting tired of waiting for R3.  Do what I did; get 
out of the computing field for 5 or 6 years, do some manual labour. 
 And then on return, regret missing out on all the nifty developments 
and racing to play catch up.
</joking aside>

P.S.  I do regret not following REBOL development from the day shortly 
after Graham made his (to me) famous 2nd millennium post to comp.lang.forth 
till some 18 months ago.  I always feel just that little bit left 
out as I learn things that many of my REBOL heroes have grown, to 
what I see as, "been there, done that".  I want to get there and 
do that too!

Petr; Yes I agree.  The end-user interface to services needs a good 
duffing.

And, just so you know.  I envy you, your history with REBOL - watching 
all the incremental changes and involvement in this; one of computing's 
greatest experiments.

I don't bother about not having Rebol3 complete. It is an amateur 
project (read this: done in the spare time). The timeline I have 
posted into the ML last year seems the correct one. VID for the end 
of 2008 / start 2009 and the other things complete for the end of 
the year 2009.

2010 is the completition date for REBOL3

Oooh, I'll disagree on the "amateur" comment...completely.  A small 
team of  people it may be, amateur it is not.  Even I've been paid 
for REBOL work and I still count myself a clown.

There is nothing in this world stopping anyone from becoming a full-time 
rebol.  If not as an employee, as an entrepreneur.  Nothing.

I have used "amateur" to reflect the time that the development group 
actually seems to have available for developing REBOL3 and not its 
quality.

I'll still disagree; 

Some of "our" lot in this whole endeavour may be deemed non-expert 
but REBOL itself is developed by some highly skilled professionals. 
 When R3 finally does hit beta (or even getting past the next few 
alpha hurdles), I think our current lower than normal morale will 
bounce right back to the heights of euphoria.


No soup for you!   :)   (But keep up the good works on DocBase - 
it may not always seem like it, but your efforts are appreciated 
Giuseppe).

I totally agree with you about the "high quality skilled professional" 
but do you agree about the fact that to not be a amat.... (no, lets 
change the word you don't like) "Part Time project" the development 
team must work 8/12h over 24 and 5/6 days a week exclusively on REBOL 
?

However, I admit I have used a difficult word that could hurt and 
upset someone... hei but is discussion made only of gentle words 
? No ! Sometime we need salt and pepper !!

Yes I do agree, and I also think that IS the case.  The core developers 
are full-timers.  It is just that the core team is very small.  And 
even some of the helpful volunteers, BrianH, Nenad, Pekr, Ashley, 
Henrik, Gregg ... too name but a few, probably get less sleep than 
they deserve due to REBOL developments.  Efforts we get to benefit 
from.  No doubt you yourself felt a little sleep deprived when you 
did the massive R2 document push to the wiki.  :)

I would like to feel Sleep Deprived again soon but Rebol Documentation 
Project I want to mirror isn't going back online anytime soon :-(

I like the way you discuss things GiuseppeC - your thoughts are very 
well selected.

Paul;  I count Giuseppe as one of the unsung heroes.  You too.  :)

I remember starting a form of REBOL documentation project way back 
in the early days.  I ran a REBOL documentation search engine which 
was all M$ based and Holger I think it was came back and said they 
liked my site greatly but thought I need to ensure that REBOL was 
captilized.  Every since then I tried to remember to Capitilize REBOL.

thanks Brian, throw yourself on the list.

There just aren't enough Vikings in the boat to make for a roar. 
 :)

Yes Paul, it is REBOL, R E B O L ! I have still to wix it in my mind.

indeed.

Oh and Giuseppe, just so ya know ... I do count myself as amateur, 
in the main ... rank amateur.  Clown even.  :)

But I'll defend RT to the ... umm, ... nah. 

be prepared to die for what you believe ... but keep those commitments 
to a minimum
   :)

:-)

However, a last consideration before continuing my work to organize 
my room: REBOL Tech continues to upset peole creating timelines. 
Please, tell Carl to not give dates anymore or Pekr will sometime 
kill him ! :-)

I will not kill anyone. If development goes as "fast" as it does, 
Carl might actually decide to kill himself without my help :-) <black 
"humour" off>

The situation is not the easy one. My understanding is, that RT is 
kind of "one man show", with external contractors. I guess (but surely 
can't know for sure), that there is noone else contracted nowadays.

Giuseppe: if you should admit that R3 is going to be released in 
2010, then it is easy situation for me - I quit.

R3 is going out in 2008, period. I'll push for it. Well, I don't 
expect it being feature complete, but we should define what goes 
into 3.0, what goes into 3.1.

The thing is as follows - I talked to Carl almost on daily basis 
some two months back, for quite some time. And I am glad, that RT 
has some strategy. Those who say otherwise, are not correct. But 
- having some strategy and being able to fulfill it, are two different 
things.

If you notice rebol.com R3 strategy page, you will clearly see - 
VID revision (happening now), and then LNS revision in order to be 
able to release DevBase, and finally sources, both C and R level, 
to let ppl plug-in imediatelly - that will make us busy, will not? 
:-)

I can see the release of open-source parts really crucial, as it 
will allow for some fixes, and to start porting efforts, better understanding 
of REBOL internals by the community ...

The thing I don't understand is RT and its investors, and the organisation 
(management) of the project. There are fatal mistakes, like letting 
Gabriele go to work for Qtask for 1 months, ending in 6 month delay 
in VID development.

Those things really worry me. We either admit REBOL is hobby project, 
without any influence on computing world, or we should take our work 
seriously - there is competition out there - Flash/Flex, JavaFX, 
Silverlight being in beta 2.0. I am not investor, so I can't make 
any suggestions. But being one, I would try to manage some dev. team, 
working 5 days, 8 hours in a week as a minimum ....

What Carl should realize is that it's not feasible to compete in 
this world as a one man band even if you're a genius.  You need to 
open source as much as possible, and I think it's a mistake using 
Altme.

this developing behind closed doors is very discouraging even for 
those of us with access to the r3alpha world.

RT is like a black hole with the only information escaping the radition 
from the event horizon.

Occasionally RT behaves like a quasar but then drifts back into an 
ordinary black hole ... and we bathe in cold Hawking radiation.

hehe, alone on r3-alpha world now - now it is MY world :-)

Pekr, I have a clear vision of the development cycle and time: 2010 
is the year we will go out of beta.

So quit now ! :-)

I like the project and I appreciate the effiorts of Carl and the 
community and I take it as is. It is a gift of a genius which has 
spent a lot of money during the years and which surely doesn't have 
other golden treasures to give to project.

in 2010 REBOL will be irrelevant ...

I am not so pessimistic. REBOL in 2010 will be a nice programming 
language. It will be our role to develop the connections to the outer 
world like the community did with REBOL 2.

Petr, I think you overestimate the competition.  Rebol has an enduring 
quality that, so long as the company keeps going, will be very relevant 
in 2010 and beyond.  Just as it's relevant now, despite previous 
predictions to the contrary...