World: r3wp

no, but that was only a day

yeah, so you don't really notice what it means to have people criticizing 
you during the design process.

Oh no, that is ongoing.

I get comments all the time.

your design process is very short. it's very different for a system 
like VID3. the rest is implementation, which is more trivial.

You did the same with Listview

but clearly not everyone can work the same way

The design process for LIST-VIEW was very short. It took a few days 
to build the first version. After that it was more an issue of getting 
features put on top of other features and spending time on bug fixing. 
There was very little actual design after the first version.

Henrik - I did not criticize during the design process - there was 
6 months delay, so I started to study it, and put quesiton on table. 
Then there was one month or so of development of GOBs dialect and 
other things - once again - most of my questions came in different 
period - after the release. And Gabriele did not release often in 
order for me to disrupt his dev. process ...

Is this leading to anywhere?

But that short design process also caused some lock-ins: It's not 
possible to create horizontal scrolling, something that Pekr wanted 
badly and never got. I wanted to implement column rearrangement via 
drag'n'drop, but it turned out to require about 20-30 kb extra code. 
Row drag and drop is horrible code. So the base design is far from 
brilliant or sufficiently generic to satisfy every condition of use.

Graham - it is just leading to filling some eventually free time 
and shorten waiting for the next best thing - GIDI :-)

GIDI?? like vidi, vinci vici ?

GIDI is Carl's preliminary name for VID3.4.

what's the acronym stand for ?

Graphics is there for sure :-)

I hope intelligent design is not there!

GIDI: "Graphical interactive dialect interface"

not great

We could as well call it GDI, it is already known in MS world :-)

I suggested GINA, but don't remember what it stands for :-)

DVI .... dialected visual interface

DVI is already hw inteface, isn't it?

that's called overloading :)

:-)

There is SilverLight, MoonLight, Flash, we planned FireSide, SideLight, 
or something like that - but that is more for a product name, than 
to call some subsystem ...

RebolLight

Doesn't it sound like kind of product? Express, Light, Demo?

yeah

But why not, would be fun - I am proud of REBOL :-)

REBOLight

Thermite ?

flash in a pan :)

isn't thermite explosive? :-)

yes, it creates flashes

so, we have a product that is capable of creating flash like graphics 
and better.

Or we can call it similar to Flash - Fresh, or reFresh

nah ... want something different and better

If GIDI is revolutionary, we want the ParadigmShift :-)

The tough thing to appreciate is that VID is a general-purpose entry/mid-level 
dialect.  R2/VID has been in the wild for 6yrs(?) now and we have 
certainly gone through periods of isolating key weaknesses, but we 
all have a tendency to have had starry-eyed visions for what VID 
should be.  The practical gets mixed in with the possibility when 
it's time for action.


I think the community would be better served with a strong VID alternative 
(not as a slight to RebGUI which does very well acheiving its stated 
aims) not bound by Carl's constraints for the entry level language, 
and open (as in open) source with very clear aims.  It has to be 
independent and perhaps needs to span R2 and R3, at least initially. 
 We have the capabilities, resources and talent to do it, but instead 
try to hammer these ideas into VID.


This isn't intended to be a rallying cry -- it's just my assessment 
based on observation and involvement.  Such an undertaking would 
have inevitable difficulty overcoming the differing visions of interested 
parties.  Conversely, it's within us to create an enduring, enviable 
framework...

Graham, you have an interesting way of working

However, many discussions about development methodologies are comparing 
apples to oranges

The iterative way of developing with lots of feedback, nowadays described 
in Extreme and Agile Programming, is very suitable for user applications 
and solves a lot of problems there

However, it's not suitable for systems programming, where you don't 
mold your design around user requirements, but around the requirements 
of hardware and underlying system software layers

REBOL is clearly systems software, a middleware layer that aims to 
bridge between lower level systems and frameworks for basing user 
applications on

Its design requires much more knowledge and experience of the system 
than most people, even REBOL programmers have, contrary to user applications, 
where the user is by definition the top expert

well the mear problemfor comunication is the monolitic way to think 
.... 1 guy working = stability of the way to work but fluctuant communication. 
And teh problem  can be there is not much to communicate about too 
. several guys working = code harder to stabilise but more easy to 
communicate each time you have a new thing done or a new idea popping

that remembers me how we started rebGUI with rebol community ashley 
and me. First ashley and me  were working on MakeDoc and MakeDoc 
Pro dialect to VID renderer we emulate each other alot and from this 
exange born the constatation that common VID face set was not adapated 
to usual GUI  or big amount of face handling. And from that constatation 
Ashley proposed to make rebGUI  wich we presented as a major enhancement 
to VID layer keeping the main idea alive "KEEP IT SIMPLE". Ashley 
proposed the community to share idea or suggestion and on every single 
widget the community proposed we got a discution and code proposition 
to achieve this goal.

sure the most of the work was lets say the assembly and diffusion 
part of rebgui was still done by 1 guy Ashley wich have the main 
vision of the project and was our guarant to get end edged library 
usable by any one but many were the  contributors and that leads 
to a really dynamic work i remember on the very beggining of the 
project a new version of rebgui was available every 2 weeks.

hum crhis the main problem is the interface betwin the common REBOL/VID 
and the side way external VID like dialect (but not using VID) developed 
by the community and promoted by the communnity. All the rebol communication 
is to say  you download only rebol VM  and you are done read for 
work.