World: r3wp

Also, it looks like the new VID may be more integrated than the old 
one.

I always looked at REBOL as a general programming language, but it 
seems that's no more a goal to reach (if it has ever been in RT's 
plans). I know that it has been marketed as a "messaging language", 
but I thought that  it would evolve more as a pure programming language. 
Maybe I have a wrong POV on REBOL from the beggining. I always looked 
at VID/View being a good addition to the language, but not a vital 
one. Now that such high-level features have become top priority, 
I wonder if Core3.0, with all the features we're waiting for since 
years, will be completed and stable before 2010...I'm not sure that 
I'll wait that much.

I'm a bit impatient myself Doc.  I think they should not worry about 
VID for release but worry about what VID will be built off of - hence 
VIEW instead and they can always release VID as a module later if 
needed.

I shouldn' t use the word impatient because I think that anyone that 
is waiting on R3 has obviously displayed patience.

I always looked at REBOL as a data structure manipulation library 
with language implementation tools built in. Also, it bundles some 
useful languages with it. My only significant View app has been DevBase 
- aside from that I have just used it for code generation, batch 
processes and server side stuff.

I didn't even write most of the View stuff in DevBase, just adapted 
Carl and Henrik's code. :)

I have written several VID based apps but I'm usually finding myself 
more in need of features that the /core lacks.

I've stopped working on the products built with REBOL I was planning 
to release. The future of REBOL as a standalone programming language, 
has become too uncertain for me. I'm working only on Cheyenne and 
MySQL driver, because I use them daily, but I don't think that I 
will invest more time and energy than that on REBOL. I've already 
started searching for alternative solutions, including resume working 
on a clone or a derivated of REBOL. In the past, I've stopped working 
on a clone because, the release of the plugin interface for REBOL 
was supposed to be imminent. That was 3 years ago.

Doc, I'm also looking for an alternative to REBOL for mostly the 
same reasons.  So if you find something that appeals to you, please 
share the information.  I know very little about the strengths and 
weaknesses of other languages and hope other developers can chime 
in on their experiences.

I've mostly gone in the opposite direction, doing more and more with 
REBOL.

I guess it's because I'm getting more and more skilled with dialects 
and try to push myself to improve my skills in REBOL, so when it's 
about tool building, for me it's also about pushing myself to write 
the most elegant tool possible. Also I just get plain depressed when 
moving to PHP, javascript or similar to do work there. I can't get 
back to REBOL fast enough. :-)

When I work in other languages, I generate the code using REBOL half 
the time.

Well, REBOL has influenced me quite a lot too. I don't want to get 
back to an inferior tool, but I don't want to use a closed-source 
programming language anymore (unless it is backed by a *big* software 
company).

Hum alternative to rebol is a n old idea but since today no one went 
in this process as far carl did. If we really want to wirte our own 
REBOL-Like VM  that means the same thing than for REBOL main dev 
 in fact .... ORGANISATION people who will work each day some hours 
on the project. REmember guys the pyramids in Egypt or in mexico 
have been done stone by stone past 3000  years and they are still 
up today. This to point the fact we all have side things to and starting 
from scratch  the writing of a REBOL clone implicate a true implication 
and not from only 1 guy.

DocKimbel, it's interesting with big companies... what if REBOL had 
been invented by Carl while he was with Commodore?

I think the problem is that Carl doesn't seem to have the resources. 
 Even if he had the resources they would have to have the CARL-WAy 
of development to achieve his vision for REBOL.

I LOVE REBOL  that a fact but rebol is a hum how to say that without 
hurting Carl .... not achieved. Carl start things and never finish 
them and that ends to an incomplete picture and the fact that rebol 
is considere as a cool toy but not as a professional thing.

Software has never being a major business for Commodore AFAIK.

really in french community we got the spirit VM project who died 
because lackk of interrest

I love working in Rebol for GUI apps.  Development is fast and I 
can do most of the things I want with the raw view.  Sure, I could 
go back to grinding out interfaces in C++/C#/VB/<insert lang here> 
but it would lack the simplicity and flexibility I am used to with 
Rebol.  Unfortunately, most of the time i am now using Rebol for 
'what if' and concept work because of many underlying issues with 
the draw subsystem preclude serious development work.

Doc didn't you have like a R# or some type of project a while back?

maybe a good way to motivate Carl is doing such a project to show 
we really care and maybe in the process we will get  some fun idea 
and new things that will amaze Carl and give him the taste and ennergy 
to focus on rebol VM  enhancing and finishing

I dont think its needing to encourage Carl - i suspect he is quite 
busy working on R3 - it is just the problem when he goes silent for 
weeks on end we don't know where things are going - at times like 
that it is us, the developers that may ned encouraging.

Dockimbel, my theory is that if it was made under a large company 
like Apple or Commodore, Carl may not have been able to take it with 
him due to contractual obligations. He could also be forced to abandon 
it, due to budget cuts or being an uninteresting project to various 
clueless bosses.

RT is not governed by clueless bosses who have no idea what REBOL 
really represents (most people I talk to, don't really know what 
REBOL represents or what it really is) and since it's one man's vision, 
it's a lot harder to kill. Only his own lack of motivation would 
kill REBOL. His motivation from the last time he talked on the r3-alpha 
world, was far from lacking.

Maybe we should get involved with REBOL development. There's more 
than just the core, you know.

as far as I know here are the names of the rebol-like VM intents 
:OSCAR, R#, SPIRIT (developed in C# with Mono GPL framework cause 
mono is on the 3 major OS (UNIX like Linux like, and windows (don't 
like ..))

all of them went hum not far ... REbol does alot of things and denying 
it's complexity is insulting ...

BrianH, to me, one of the things that RT needs is projects that can 
run completely autonomously and doesn't need Carl's supervision or 
approval, but is close enough to the core to be official.

BrianH, I agree.  Maybe, Carl needs to do something similiar as he 
did for the 2.7 update but this time task altme worlds to specific 
tasks.

VM  is hard to code to bring rebol coders the most easy and sharped 
way to code...

shadwolf are any of those projects active today?

Shadwolf: If pyramids were designed by committee, I don't think they 
would last so long. I believe that the more complex the design is, 
the less people it requires to be well done. For a programming language 
that don't rely on written specifications, it's a one man's work, 
at least for the kernel part.

I've been trying to move DevBase to a multi-project model.

all of those projects are dead .... I have the sources of the last 
one in date (spirit)

Maybe that is what is needed - a new open source REBOL clone that 
is going the way of R3?

Oscar is in real world use even now, as part of Syllable.

Paul, I don't think it's a good idea. one of the reasons I use REBOL 
is because there are no competing clones that are not entirely compatible.

Dock at same time we have rebol as example ... And any way i don't 
pretend to be as clever as Carl but if I can help in anyway in the 
process and at least by doing communication and documentation you 
will find me  that's a fact  ^^

Henrik, I only mention it if REBOL is not going to develop faster.

Paul: yes I'm the author of R#, which was more a research project 
on alternate ways of implementing REBOL evaluation and memory management 
than a serious attempt to make the open-source clone of REBOL.

Ahhh, ok.

An open-source REBOL clone would be the fastest way to kill Carl's 
motivation, at which point REBOL and all of the clones die.

no - i think Carl is correct in keeping core closed source. however 
i think the interfaces into core need to be simple enough that outside 
modules can easily be plugged into it in higher than C level constructs 
- probably requiring an object packer/unpacker in the core interface 
handlers

We need to combine some products and get REBOL in the mainstream.

Anyway the rebol clone can only be a dynamiser for our overbored 
community (muhahahaahaha no i'm not drunk !!! I promise !! )

Paul, I still don't think an OSS clone is the answer. Remember also 
that R3 has been worked on since 2006 for over two years. Would we 
want to duplicate all that effort? It's much better to get some autonomous 
official projects going, like building some more network protocols. 
People like Gabriele are trusted enough to make code and run projects 
like that.

I would love to see a community driven project for creating full 
SSH, HTTPS, SFTP access for R3. Carl doesn't need to supervise that.

Problem is that Gabriele is not enough people.  God bless him - I'm 
sure he works his ass off but we need more with his type of skills 
that know the Carl-way.

Henrik, I would think VID should be in that catagory also.

Brian: I'm not sure about that.