World: r3wp

it seems that Carl is trying to build really strong foundation to 
make development, debugging/testing and using the gui an easy enough 
task ...

Most major UI frameworks have theming support nowadays, mostly to 
support system theming - it's a checklist item when comparing frameworks. 
Not as much of a deal killer as a lack of Unicode support, but still 
what people expect. A clean, unified cross-platform look is a necessity 
to include, but making it the only look would reduce the uptake of 
REBOL. Many business apps need a platform integrated look, and many 
other apps want to establish their own identity (look at WinAmp, 
Chrome or the Apple apps).

Henrik has said in the past that his basic design aesthetic is to 
start with shades of grey and then add color as needed. This tends 
to make elegant, business-like interfaces. My aesthetic is more shades 
of black and white with color accents, avoiding blue as much as I 
can in user interface elements - more of a night person look. To 
each their own.

I see a middle ground - a strong foundation theme can transcend platform.

The middle ground is infrastructure - on that ground you would grow 
the UI you want, but you won't look at the ground :)

We will definitely be including a nice looking default theme though 
(we're still hammering out the concept naming).

My hope is that we can have generic themes that can be used by many 
apps, and made by a theme editor with minimal code. I would love 
to see R3 themes on the many theming sites out there already - good 
advertising :)

Brian - how one can add something like e.g. icon animation (as can 
be seen on an iPhone)? Can I still stay at styles level, not needing 
to rewrite/adapt low level? Hopefully so ....

In answer to your questions:
- I don't know yet, but that would be cool so I'll look into it.

- That is the intention. So far I have been only working at the mid-level: 
Low-level REBOL code, not native. Henrik has been styling :)

Henrik is the stylizer ?

Graham, I channel Da Vinci.

Carl did his standard candy color theme. Henrik is doing something 
more elegant.

Which is kind of appropriate, because every time I edit Carl's code, 
it makes me feel like I'm painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa. 
:-)

Henrik ... it was a joke ... at all these *ize words

Graham, mine was a joke too :-)

That's funny, I feel like I'm turning his artwork into an engineering 
blueprint :)

I've been working at the infrastructure level. One of the main goals 
for the code I have been writing is to make sure that most REBOL 
programmers won't need to ever touch code at that level, or even 
think about it much. That would be ideal :)

My opinion on skinning in general: I think skinning is something 
that has been gravely abused over the years. The last time I enjoyed 
skinning was with MUI on the Amiga because MUI was made for skinning. 
It was simple to get a good looking user interface without compromising 
usability or functionality. Nowadays we try to skin OSX and Windows 
in ways they were never meant to, and you feel it when using it. 
There are slowdowns or functionality is sacrificed. When you flip 
through a skin catalog, 99,9% of them are terrible junk and it's 
difficult to come up with your own.

I plan on trying a very different skin after this one.

The more different the better - shake any bugs or design flaws out 
of the system.

BrianH: "I've been working at the infrastructure level ..." - are 
you saying you are now part of the implementation team? So you and 
Carl are doing VID3.4 development now?

Henrik - with your experience of OS level skinning - we should be 
sure, that our system is done the right way then. What I am not sure 
about is, if ppl are interested in skinning at all. Sometimes we 
can see only thin-skins (as per Carl's blog terms), but those are 
boring, mainly some color and rounding changes. What we should aim 
for is the ability to medium to thick skins, to simply mimick various 
needs (e.g. producing iPhone like animated UI for the mobile market, 
while business decent one, for corporate ...)

Yes I am. So far I've been doing code auditing and cleanup while 
I get a feel for the overall system. The design is really cool, though 
some parts are still under construction. Not modularized yet, nor 
should it be until it is more finalized. Most of the core design 
is pretty stable.

Part of the fun is when code patterns in the UI suggest possible 
improvements to the core REBOL semantics. Carl's GUI work is coming 
with lots of goodies for the rest of us, whether you are doing GUIs 
or not.

Pekr, I don't know what it will look like, when handling thick-skins. 
I would personally like to see some that are downloadable from RT 
(official skins) and then provide simple tools for letting you create 
skins to inspire people to create their own. This will be important 
for pages, where people want to get their own look.

BrianH: that is cool! You already did good job for DevBase. Now it 
would be interesting, if you would thought about DevBase VID3.4 :-) 
Maybe a good testing app to start with :-)

needs LNS working first

I thought Gabriele made it to work?

with R3?  I don't believe so ...

but I don't know.

I think he did make some parts work, but not the whole thing.

BrianH: are you suggesting, that because of VID3.4 work, we will 
see some changes to core? There was supposed to be one - context 
lookup, which was not added though, as Carl solved it by binding?

Graham - there is now Rebservices-R3 source code group in DevBase. 
It was submitted there on 11th of June, 2008 by Gabriele. I don't 
know, how feature complete the release is, or if it is usable ...

A new DevBase is still intended to be a testbed for REBOL technologies, 
including the new GUI and LNS.

A more modern GUI for devbase would be nice

sliding screens ... :)

translucency

skinnable

there has to be a few exemplars for the rest of us :)

I can't go into the core changes right now because some of them aren't 
finalized (and it's 4am here), but here's a teaser: SELECT on object! 
acts like GET IN, but much faster. If the argument word is not a 
field in the object, #[none] is returned - no errors, no undefined!, 
just like with map! values.

So far, we are solving panel (page) style elements. What I miss is 
one layer above it, namel split-window. Hopefully it will not be 
problem. When I look e.g. at Outlook, the UI is - one window, background, 
and panels. When you move over the space between the panels, mouse 
pointer changes to that of resize. I wonder how would we do it?

Why is SELECT faster? :-) re error - get in could change to return 
none too, no?

that's a custom widget

Graham, I'd be happy with a DevBase that isn't a usability nightmare 
and implements a collaboration model that makes sense.

GET IN does return none, but it does it as an error workaround. SELECT 
does it in one, non-erroneous operation.

custom widget? All apps I can see provide kind of split window ... 
even AltME :-) I think that solution might be to allow one of four 
sides of panel to be resizable in certain direction. The rest will 
be handled by resizing model ...

Pekr, that is supported already by the splitter style, I think.

what will also be interesting is pop-ups. Caused us some problems 
in the past. Menus, rotary, etc.

trying to solve too many problems at once

if devbase is a nightmare ( I've not had access ) someone as you 
say needs to design it properly first

(sleep now)