World: r3wp

I can't go into the core changes right now because some of them aren't 
finalized (and it's 4am here), but here's a teaser: SELECT on object! 
acts like GET IN, but much faster. If the argument word is not a 
field in the object, #[none] is returned - no errors, no undefined!, 
just like with map! values.

So far, we are solving panel (page) style elements. What I miss is 
one layer above it, namel split-window. Hopefully it will not be 
problem. When I look e.g. at Outlook, the UI is - one window, background, 
and panels. When you move over the space between the panels, mouse 
pointer changes to that of resize. I wonder how would we do it?

Why is SELECT faster? :-) re error - get in could change to return 
none too, no?

that's a custom widget

Graham, I'd be happy with a DevBase that isn't a usability nightmare 
and implements a collaboration model that makes sense.

GET IN does return none, but it does it as an error workaround. SELECT 
does it in one, non-erroneous operation.

custom widget? All apps I can see provide kind of split window ... 
even AltME :-) I think that solution might be to allow one of four 
sides of panel to be resizable in certain direction. The rest will 
be handled by resizing model ...

Pekr, that is supported already by the splitter style, I think.

what will also be interesting is pop-ups. Caused us some problems 
in the past. Menus, rotary, etc.

trying to solve too many problems at once

if devbase is a nightmare ( I've not had access ) someone as you 
say needs to design it properly first

(sleep now)

chicken and egg

who knows ... but there a lots of collaborative tools out there. 
 Designing another might be considered a distraction from core business 
( pun intended )

Many ppl suggested to accept e.g. SVN Trac, as RebGUI is using. But 
DevBase otoh gave us another good VID expert - Brian :-) He was also 
doing some fixes, which will be part of Core 2.7. Sometimes it is 
good to use your own tools. That is also why Carl is putting so much 
energy to new VID - trying to do some real stuff using VID.

The current design of DevBase has been useful to show us what works 
and what doesn't. The new DevBase will be valuable to the community 
beyond its specific use, but I intend for it to be worth making on 
its own merit.

Pekr is right, I never used VID2 at all before I started working 
on DevBase. Now I am working on improving VID2. That's a value :)

Now you are working also on VID3.4 :-)

If we are concentrating on VID, perhaps we need to locate the most 
common widgets and see if there any dificulties in creating them 
... like Pekr's split windows

If we don't want to start with own windowing system (which might 
be important for browser plug-in where using pop-up windows could 
get problematic because of blockers), then we should start with some 
kind of split window, and look for inspiration to various nowadays 
apps. Once you divide your app window into such sections (it imo 
still can be done with adapted panel style), you can then place icon-bar/menu 
at the top, icon-list or tree on the left, and the form on the right 
side. What some REBOLlers I talk to are also expecting, are styles 
like tree-view, tabs, grid, out of the box ...

Well, Rebgui has set the current working benchmark

yes, except the system friendly behaviour (accelerators, ocusing 
system, ctrl tab for switching tabs, etc.). Other than that, RebGUI 
is nicely feature complete.

How realistic is it to want to be able to drag and drop widgets?

and have the ability to drag items from one widget to another?

Can widgets accept such events?

I don't think that would be too difficult, although a framework for 
that would need to be made.

I sometimes wonder about the inherent limitations to a dialected 
GUI vs an object oriented one

Graham - we are kind of object oriented. And why should it be a problem? 
You can go and locate effect-lab2.r script in R3-alpha world. This 
clearly shows, that drag and drop is not the problem, and that items 
even react to such stuff, including mouse pointer change. Simply 
put, all you need is to get low level event which tells you the drag 
is happening, and then you provide on-drag, on-drag-over event handler, 
where you can ''cause-event (in Gab's version) and style can react 
to it ....

and the type of widget being dropped is known to the event?

you could store such information centrally, since you usually only 
drag one item at a time. the on-drop handler for a style would then 
read the information on what was dropped here.

I often drop a bunch of stuff across ... eg file copying

we have to support multidrop though ... imagine selecting several 
images and dragging them at once ...

Pekr, sure, but still you can store that centrally. the method would 
be the same.

Henrik:  from the docs - "The GUI module object (currently called 
GUIE, but soon to be just a module variable) " - does it mean VID 
3.4 will use real modules, or just reading too much into it on my 
side?

AFAIK the GUI system will be a module.

the GUIE almost looks like new name for the GUI :-)

Henrik - do styles/faces have something like origin, margin, edge? 
E.g. how do you adjust field, what unit (pixel) should text start 
from?

I'll respond to that later.

Henrik, BrianH: could you please ask Carl to add one rather simple 
style, called Icon? It should consist of Image, text description, 
and it should be selectable (blue translucent color upon selection). 
I would like to see, how such selection is being drawn, if not part 
of draw block. If you want small but real-life app to test, please 
port effect-lab2.r to VID 3.4. We can then compare. Gab's version 
handles dragging and mouse-pointer change too.

when we get to it, we'll look at it.

Graham, drag support is already in the new GUI. All that would be 
needed for full drag-and-drop is some idea of what dropping is supposed 
to mean, which varies depending on the situation.

Same with multidrop - it depends on what you are dragging. It's an 
application issue.

Pekr, R3 will use real modules. The initial public development releases 
of the GUI will not. The module system (and even spec) are not finished. 
We will be able to resume work on the module system soon, and the 
design of the new GUI's code is being done with a module system in 
mind. It's helping to do the GUI first because it serves as a use 
case and inspiration for low-level semantic fixes like a module system.

The GUI system may end up being one module, but may end up being 
more than one. System design first, code organization later once 
we have an idea what it is that we are organizing. The entire GUI 
code base will be small enough for one (smart) person to understand.

Henrik - can the panel be non-rounded, just boxy? Will it be adjustable?

It's not a setting, but I guess it can be added.

but then again, would I want to? It depends on what we want to add 
as user settings for the skin.

simply put, button and even panel rounding, even if rather small, 
does not look good, when you place stuff one to each other. E.g. 
with buttons tied close together. While I like button as is, I don't 
like rounded panel at all. Once again it is my preference. IIRC RebGUI 
has it as a preference and all styles adjust. First thing I do is, 
that I go for strict boxy desing, no rounding ....

If such things are not settable, what chance do I have? To restyle 
all styles it should apply to?

Then it would not be possible to set. I'll see if Carl will let me 
add it later.