World: r3wp

Graham - we can't do anything ...

No, not true.

we can refuse to be a part of the comedy of errors

It may come as a surprise because I have previously made it clear 
that I think the delays are very harmful, but I actually think that 
Carl's current decision to do a BBS is a good strategy

Carl once again runs in circles, and ppl are becoming upset. Still 
dragging our attention by blogs, questions, but with zero resolution 
to final decisions. This project is pretty much missmanaged, and 
RT without marketing manager and really a solid aproach is a bad 
joke.

Sorry Kaj ... but you're not making sense

How can Carl's decision to write a BBS be rational?

I'd be interested to have you explain why?

Why now at this critical juncture?

After 10 years he wants to write a BBS .. he's already written one 
with Gregg, volker etc

Because people are overestimating the time it will take to bring 
up a small BBS

It's not rational

I think Carl will do it quite quickly, and all his reasons for it 
hold water

he's already said he does not  want to be distracted from GUI and 
core

And I think he wants to write a Rebol client as well ....

I was actually surprised that he considered the available alternatives. 
I know they suck and need to be replaced

What is this but another distraction ...?

kaj ... it's called a temporary measure ...

pending someone eg Oldes, writing a BBS.

Kaj - this is plain nonsense. We saw it with Carl's going in cave 
for Unicode, as well as for DevBase, as well as Rebservices - still 
the same - wait for some dependency, which never gets finished.

I was really harsh on r3-alpha channel, but if such leadership was 
in some of my subteams, I would fire such person pretty soon!

Do you think the solution lies in making my and Carl's opinion out 
ot be nonsense?

The reason he gives is totally inadequate ... it's just some type 
of internal conflict resolution he is making to try and delay

Typical reaction. Who tries to make you opinion being nonsense? The 
thing either help organisation of the whole project, or it does not.

As Ashley says, Carl plays while Rome burns

and Kaj, and Oldes are supporting instrumentals

We really need to get to the state, where others can start to participate. 
And it will happen only if there is some kind of DevBase functional 
and Carl ready to upload R3 sources in there. I do understand the 
need for the existance of supporting infrastructure, but it can be 
done in parallel. We constantly wait for this or that, instead of 
releasing something ..

I'm reminded of an old Amiga product ... Fantavision

well, I've said my piece... back to coding

Graham: Carl replied on f3-alpha

Graham, I think you need to review the concept of web-public.

Pekr, Carl has said that the PARSE enhancements have been put on 
the backburner until the release, but he'll get to them afterwards. 
This means that we won't get the enhanced PARSE in the next developer 
release.

never minds. I say - release on monthly basis, ppl will sort it out. 
Those releases are really needed, even if supporting infrastructure 
is not there. We have clever devs here, we can sort it out and work 
on things in parallel. Simply put - give ppl somting, and they will 
shut up :-)

Do you promise?

Kaj - this is unnecessary invective. I am not little chaild to be 
taught by others, how should I behave.

I didn't mean it that way. I'm not telling you, I'm asking

The thing is, I doubt people will ever shut up

I am simply not buying and agreeing to everything Carl says, just 
because he is well respected guru. If you think I attack Carl or 
others, you are wrong. I am just against some basic principles of 
management .

While a lot of the criticism here is justified, it's not in this 
case, because it makes perfect sense in the current course of development

Imagine that you know how to drive teams. You are doing it on daily 
basis. Last month, my team finished SAP R3 upgrade - 30 ppl involved. 
Without a glitch. I feel how to move forward, but I also feel being 
unheard. But - I talked to Carl almost on daily basis few months 
ago. The thing is, he agrees to many of my points, it is just we 
somehow can't find the way of how to make things work faster in practice.

Sure, but your business is not Carl's business. Your methods don't 
extend to developing the system software REBOL

my methods

 are general project management methods, why should it differ for 
 R3? The real problem imo is, that Carl is used to work either in 
 really small teams, or alone. I can understand his pov about the 
 code quality, and imo it is difficult for hime to find "leutenants", 
 but at least BrianH imo passes the requirement. Pity Ladislav is 
 not awailable anymore.

For one thing, as I said, because your not doing system software

You're also not doing innovative software, you're rolling our an 
existing, traditional solution

You're also not doing social software in a loosely connected community, 
you're doing line-of-business softtware in command-and-control organisation

how does it differ? Innovation lays in the design process. I am not 
saying a word for how guys decide about the design. But then, when 
you are supposed to release, the processes are really identical - 
relese, communication, team management, etc. Or am I really wrong 
here?

I think you'll be able to read that in management books. It's a complex 
matter

We have (not web-public) groups for this kind of chat.

Too late...

Not too late to switch.