World: r3wp

VID is a superset
 - VID is a layout description dialect, no superset

Hmm, well words in VID that declare the GUI elements, button, text, 
for example, are not layout specific. If I were to change the layout 
dialect, would these not stay the same? Doesn't this mean that the 
VID is a superset of any layout dialect in that it includes words 
for defining layout and words for declaring GUI elements?

My assertion earlier, that resizing is intimately tied to a particular 
layout implementation, still stands, though.

 - you can assert whatever you like, but it is beyond my understanding 
 why. Certainly, a layout dialect implementation may be "tied to" 
 a particular resizing method, since for different methods you may 
 need different data structures, so what? You can always use different 
 resizing, and if the respective layout dialect is not able to specify 
 all options the resizing algorithm offers (quite unlikely), you are 
 free to change the dialect.

Nevertheless, that does not mean, that if a different underlying 
data structure/interface is needed, you are not forced to modify 
the dialect implementation to be able to couple it with a different 
resizing algorithm, but, that is again a trivial information, that 
everybody understands/knows.

Hmm, well words in VID that declare the GUI elements, button, text, 
for example, are not layout specific. If I were to change the layout 
dialect, would these not stay the same? Doesn't this mean that the 
VID is a superset of any layout dialect in that it includes words 
for defining layout and words for declaring GUI elements?

 - no, this is REBOL, and you can define a totally different dialect 
 than VID, and such a dialect surely does not have to be a subset 
 of VID in any sense of the word

As I see it, your goal is actually different: you would like to have 
a VID-replacement dialect compatible with VID in properties you call 
"non layout specific". Yes, that is possible too, of course.

'Are you saying that you can vary the "layout specification dialect", 
but not have to have a resizing implementation that takes this changed 
layout engine into account?' - certainly, we can do whatever we like, 
especially create two different layout dialects using the same resizing 
implementation, if that is what we wish

yes, this is what I'm getting at - if I were to define a new layout 
dialect could I re-use/take advantage of the code that is already 
written behind the parsing and behaviour of those elements that are 
not layout specific

surely you can, if you want to do that

thanks for bearing with me Ladislav, I keep forgetting that there 
are no sacred words in REBOL

AdrianS, I've worked with Swing and know what you are talking about. 
The equivalent to a Java swappable layout model in the R3 GUI (when 
last I worked on it) is a group style. The "group" and "panel" styles 
are two such grouping styles. More group styles and other composite 
styles can be added. What you request is built into the model already.

If we wanted to, I'm sure VID from R2 could be "emulated" in an R3 
VID face.

Brian, what you're saying though is that a containing GUI element 
is responsible for the layout of it's children as opposed to delegating 
that functionality to a layout manager. In Java, each GUI component 
that can be a parent can have a different layout manager added to 
it,but it doesn't manage the layout itself.

The way that Java does it is unnecessary in R3GUI: For Java, they 
have to maintain an object hierarchy; REBOL doesn't need to do that, 
so even the layout managers are styles. The group and panel styles, 
for instance, are only layout managers and have no inherent appearance 
of their own.

All styles are potentially containers - whether or not they are actually 
containers depends on the style.

You can create your own layout manager styles with little difficulty. 
Or you can create container styles that layout their children in 
a specific way for a specific purpose, like a scroller pane with 
scrollbars. You don't need separate layout manager functionality 
since laying out stuff in a custom way is an inherent feature.

IE9 preview 3 adds support for WOFF (Web Open Font Format). I wonder 
if there is something usefull in such standards, what we could possibly 
integrate to improve fonts?

http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/10/woff/

my god could it be? we will FINALLY fucking be able to use fonts 
on the web?

AdrianS: as I said in my last message here, "-by default layout elements 
have to be organized either in PANEL or GROUP structures (though 
it is possible create your super special style for circular layouts 
or whatever ;))"

By this I meant there will be two default 'layout generator' styles 
GROUP and PANEL but you can create own styles that will generate 
their content differently.

I suppose I just had the expectation that REBOL styles would only 
concern themselves with look and behaviour (group acting as a tab 
group, for example) and that layout would be handled by other types 
of constructs in the dialect, the way I'm used to. As for needing 
hierarchies in Java, these are there in the GUI component declaration 
to match the visual hierarchical arrangement and to make control 
of child visibility, event passing  and layout match what you would 
expect to see coming from such a visual arrangement. If similar control 
can be achieved by REBOL in a different way, so be it.

We are now going to replace VID resizing code with our version and 
adopt some styles to use it. Than some more tests and if all went 
good, we are soon back to style development.

http://rebol.hmkdesign.dk/files/r3/gui/219.gif


Carl's drawing of the R3 GUI/graphics pipeline (posted with his permission).

link broken, here

works for me

henrik's link broken too here ...

I'll cut and paste it here ...

graphic pipeline like ... hum  the rendrering pipeline in my GPU 
?  or just a software like pipeline wich havec pipeline only the 
name....???

http://a-browsertests.s3.amazonaws.com/219.gif

hope that works guys

Did Denmark lose to France in the worldcup?? Is that why you're being 
blocked??

yes, thx

like amount of processing in my rebol ok but one thing ... now in 
day grphical cards are hella weak in 2D rendering and espacially 
under windows 7 they are even slower than a 3DFX voodoo 3 back in 
the days ...

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

what i like with carl implementation is that he shows with better 
source code algorithm you improve the rendering queue even if you 
don"t  access the hardware specific accelartion part wich will be 
a pain to handle anyway...

2D and 3D graphics are technically the same. you can perform 2D graphics 
with any 3D rendering engine.

maxim not the same layers and they havec been separated in DX libraries 
well i can give you an article in tomshard ware with benchmark etc 
proving that point

Is the AGG cache an enhancement ?

*AGG cache stack

doing 2D using  3D hardwar stacks generates a lot of problems due 
to the antialiasing and mipmaping manipulation ( and  drawing text 
without true font but with mipmaps  provide you no gain the card 
will not use it's fonts acceleration then)

cache are always a good thing for repetitive task if you draw use 
is to draw 1 square or 1 circle or 1 line of texte will you don't 
need a cache buuuuuuut

if you do  a document rendering like area-tc with alot of  time the 
same calls over and over again then you see the obvious optimisation 
brought by a cash

i hope with the cash we tends to a more extensive use of AGG and 
a less anecdotic use of this marvelous fantastic powerfull tool (aGG)

he needs cash, but it's cache

:-)

http://www.presence-pc.com/tests/2d-windows-gdi-23257/10/for the 
article

6 am i got a heavy day yesterday and i take some time before going 
to work to be tuned ....

multiple draw blocks per styles it's like a stack systems ?  you 
could influence a layer of graphical contents without touching the 
other block

?

different states like hover/pressed, etc could be described in different 
states, allowing us to switch between them quickly.

i like that idea ... it will introduce much more flexibility ... 
 and allow something link  annimations without having to redraw all 
the blocks only drawing the blowk that have changed

been doing this for years  ;-)