World: r3wp
[!REBOL3 GUI]
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Steeve 14-Jul-2010 [1960] | uh ? |
Graham 14-Jul-2010 [1961] | http://cairographics.org/manual/cairo-ps-surface.html |
Henrik 14-Jul-2010 [1962] | The only thing Carl dislikes about AGG so far is that it's written in C++. This gives compiler issues. |
Steeve 14-Jul-2010 [1963] | Transformations are handled by matrix computations in AGG, how do you want to accelerate that and keep it portable ? |
Henrik 14-Jul-2010 [1964x2] | Steeve, ignore me. I just don't understand your original statement. Cyphre would understand it. :-) |
Graham, I suspect Cairo takes on tasks other than rasterization, which is why it has PDF/PS outputs. AGG doesn't do that and shouldn't be doing that anyway. | |
Graham 14-Jul-2010 [1966] | Why not? |
Steeve 14-Jul-2010 [1967] | Henrik, I just think (in the contrary) that we could get back all the constructed vertices just before rasterization, in a plain rebol block. So that we could output any format we want easly (PDF, PS) |
Graham 14-Jul-2010 [1968x2] | Looks like it gives us access also to win32 printing |
And it's C and not C++ | |
Robert 14-Jul-2010 [1970] | Let's first get the thing up & running, than used to see what doesn't fit and than we think about enhance, re-factoring etc. |
Steeve 14-Jul-2010 [1971x2] | Remember that AGG has a neat design. All stages are pipelined and it's easly to interrupt it at any step. |
*easy | |
Robert 14-Jul-2010 [1973] | Fighting at too many fronts at the same time is not a good idea. |
Henrik 14-Jul-2010 [1974x3] | Steeve, ok I see what you mean now. |
Steeve, but this is still Cyphre territory :-) | |
Graham, size of the library could grow and we don't want that. But, Steeve's idea could circumvent that. | |
Graham 14-Jul-2010 [1977x3] | There really is only once place you need to be concerned about the library size and that's for cgi .. and that doesn't use graphics |
So I believe the concern about library size is misplaced | |
We're not in the embedded space, or on phones ... | |
Henrik 14-Jul-2010 [1980] | Well, I disagree. |
Graham 14-Jul-2010 [1981] | Rebol's run time memory far exceeds any savings we might get from a small library |
Henrik 14-Jul-2010 [1982] | That's not the issue. The issue is to avoid bringing in the hellish chaos of win32 printing so close to the rebol core. |
Graham 14-Jul-2010 [1983] | so you want to go another decade without the ability to print?? |
Henrik 14-Jul-2010 [1984] | There will be plenty of ability to print, but surely there are smarter ways to go about that than by bringing in a huge monolithic library like Cairo. |
Graham 14-Jul-2010 [1985x2] | And the fact is, that most systems will be running the library anyway as part of firefox or something else |
small is beautiful except when you can't do much with it | |
Henrik 14-Jul-2010 [1987] | That doesn't help anything for platforms that don't use it. |
Graham 14-Jul-2010 [1988] | that's what the host kit is for |
Henrik 14-Jul-2010 [1989x2] | As said, size is not the issue, but managability. The issue is to keep uniformity as far outward as possible in the rebol core. If possible, keep win32 printing as a small mezz library, like DocKimbel has done for R2. |
(size is a side effect of managability) | |
Pekr 14-Jul-2010 [1991] | How big is Cairo lib? IIRC it was over 1MB? I agree with Robert - let's finish what we have. Let's see, what enhancements we can get in. AGG is still a cool library, being used by MANY projects. Just becuase Mozilla honchos could not do any better and choosed Cairo as mostly a political decision (because of author's involvement in the project) does not mean Cairo is any better ... Apart from that, and as Robert says - in future, we can eventually replace it. |
Gregg 14-Jul-2010 [1992] | I agree with not switching right now, but I also think we need to consider the benefits and how we mgith get PS/PDF support. I've though DIsplay Postscript was a great idea since NeXT. And if there's a way, for those who want to include it, to add it as an extension, we don't impact the core. |
shadwolf 15-Jul-2010 [1993x12] | an extension linkin agg and opengl would be awsome and crazy at same time that's sad the developpement stopped |
but there is 2 things differents ... you have the dialect draw wich gives access to the insertion of drawn shapes into a VID face and AGG is the engine can then beanything .... | |
can opengl be used the same extends as AGG hum ... opengl have a heavy mechanics and that's not suited in my opinion for 2D fast over face rendering | |
the thing is draw and so agg can be used on any widget componing VID and that's a hugde constraint what really sux with opengl are those half assed IHM interface i know glut, x and w32 extension that allows the opengl rendering engine to recive user events and then display on screen in the particular area set for it. Those interfaces are not 1% as fun as VID... Vid is total flexibility. we never did that in vid be you can imagine heavy animation using draw dialect on any kind of preset styled face. I think carl tryed to show that with the animated sliding widget when you open a window in his R3 GUI demo. | |
for me doing 2D using opengl always apeared to me as using a nuclear bomb to kill a single poor tiny cute ant ...(ok ant isn't cute...) | |
that doesn't means it doesn"t have it's grace. | |
things like transparency could be handled a way faster using opengl | |
ofcourse the software speudo antialiasing u can find in AGG is just a joke compared to X16 antialiasing buffers that can be found on now in dayx accelarting video cards. | |
comparing AGG antialising and opengl antialiasing is like comparing the sun and the moon ... | |
the moon shines but it's only due to the refraction of the light comming from the sun that's prety much what the normalisation algorithms using in AGG does and they completly sux with tiny chars fonts... making them so blur or fuzzy as you like that you can't read them ... | |
but in agg you don't have a proper way to handle fonts who wants to have flat texels to represent is document or hundreds of png files in memory ... and that where glut and other extensions try to give solutions but the réalisaton is in général ugly. | |
but in opengl you don't have a proper way to handle fonts who wants to have flat texels to represent is document or hundreds of png files in memory ... and that where glut and other extensions try to give solutions but the réalisaton is in général ugly. | |
Graham 15-Jul-2010 [2005] | And Cairo? |
shadwolf 15-Jul-2010 [2006x4] | one thing wich is really needed is the ability to have transparent windows no border no title no background ... a lot of things fun could be done once having that |
graham in general when it starts with cairon or anothing context ... that's a bad sign i mean rebol doesnt formally mention that ... | |
the draw context in a face is always there ... it's embeded in it no need to say HEY YOU KNOW WHAT NOW WE WILL DO A SQUARE IN THIS WINDOWS AND PUT SOME CONTENT in it using some engine | |
that's a cool concept to séparated things and make a dedicated widget that handle this rendering style and wich is mixed with common other widgets | |
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