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[!REBOL3 GUI]

Steeve
14-Jul-2010
[1960]
uh ?
Graham
14-Jul-2010
[1961]
http://cairographics.org/manual/cairo-ps-surface.html
Henrik
14-Jul-2010
[1962]
The only thing Carl dislikes about AGG so far is that it's written 
in C++. This gives compiler issues.
Steeve
14-Jul-2010
[1963]
Transformations are handled by matrix computations in AGG, how do 
you want to accelerate that and keep it portable ?
Henrik
14-Jul-2010
[1964x2]
Steeve, ignore me. I just don't understand your original statement. 
Cyphre would understand it. :-)
Graham, I suspect Cairo takes on tasks other than rasterization, 
which is why it has PDF/PS outputs. AGG doesn't do that and shouldn't 
be doing that anyway.
Graham
14-Jul-2010
[1966]
Why not?
Steeve
14-Jul-2010
[1967]
Henrik, I just think (in the contrary) that we could get back all 
the constructed vertices just before rasterization, in a plain rebol 
block.
So that we could output any format we want easly (PDF, PS)
Graham
14-Jul-2010
[1968x2]
Looks like it gives us access also to win32 printing
And it's C and not C++
Robert
14-Jul-2010
[1970]
Let's first get the thing up & running, than used to see what doesn't 
fit and than we think about enhance, re-factoring etc.
Steeve
14-Jul-2010
[1971x2]
Remember that AGG has a neat design. All stages are pipelined and 
it's easly to interrupt it at any step.
*easy
Robert
14-Jul-2010
[1973]
Fighting at too many fronts at the same time is not a good idea.
Henrik
14-Jul-2010
[1974x3]
Steeve, ok I see what you mean now.
Steeve, but this is still Cyphre territory :-)
Graham, size of the library could grow and we don't want that. But, 
Steeve's idea could circumvent that.
Graham
14-Jul-2010
[1977x3]
There really is only once place you need to be concerned about the 
library size and that's  for cgi .. and that doesn't use graphics
So I believe the concern about library size is misplaced
We're not in the embedded space, or on phones ...
Henrik
14-Jul-2010
[1980]
Well, I disagree.
Graham
14-Jul-2010
[1981]
Rebol's run time memory far exceeds any savings we might get from 
a small library
Henrik
14-Jul-2010
[1982]
That's not the issue. The issue is to avoid bringing in the hellish 
chaos of win32 printing so close to the rebol core.
Graham
14-Jul-2010
[1983]
so you want to go another decade without the ability to print??
Henrik
14-Jul-2010
[1984]
There will be plenty of ability to print, but surely there are smarter 
ways to go about that than by bringing in a huge monolithic library 
like Cairo.
Graham
14-Jul-2010
[1985x2]
And the fact is, that most systems will be running the library anyway 
as part of firefox or something else
small is beautiful except when you can't do much with it
Henrik
14-Jul-2010
[1987]
That doesn't help anything for platforms that don't use it.
Graham
14-Jul-2010
[1988]
that's what the host kit is for
Henrik
14-Jul-2010
[1989x2]
As said, size is not the issue, but managability. The issue is to 
keep uniformity as far outward as possible in the rebol core. If 
possible, keep win32 printing as a small mezz library, like DocKimbel 
has done for R2.
(size is a side effect of managability)
Pekr
14-Jul-2010
[1991]
How big is Cairo lib? IIRC it was over 1MB? I agree with Robert - 
let's finish what we have. Let's see, what enhancements we can get 
in. AGG is still a cool library, being used by MANY projects. Just 
becuase Mozilla honchos could not do any better and choosed Cairo 
as mostly a political decision (because of author's involvement in 
the project) does not mean Cairo is any better ...


Apart from that, and as Robert says - in future, we can eventually 
replace it.
Gregg
14-Jul-2010
[1992]
I agree with not switching right now, but I also think we need to 
consider the benefits and how we mgith get PS/PDF support. I've though 
DIsplay Postscript was a great idea since NeXT. And if there's a 
way, for those who want to include it, to add it as an extension, 
we don't impact the core.
shadwolf
15-Jul-2010
[1993x12]
an extension linkin agg and  opengl would be awsome and crazy at 
same time
that's sad the developpement stopped
but there is 2 things differents ... you have the dialect draw wich 
gives access to the insertion of  drawn shapes into a VID face and 
AGG is the engine can then beanything
....
can opengl be  used the same extends as AGG hum ... opengl have a 
heavy mechanics and that's not suited in my opinion for 2D fast over 
face rendering
the thing is draw and so agg can be used on any widget  componing 
VID and that's a hugde constraint

what really sux with opengl are those  half assed IHM interface i 
know glut, x and w32 extension that allows the opengl rendering engine 
to recive user

events and then display  on screen in the particular area set for 
it.


Those interfaces are not 1% as fun as VID... Vid is total flexibility. 
we never did that in vid be you can imagine heavy animation using 
draw dialect on any kind

of preset styled face. I think carl tryed to show that with the animated 
sliding widget when you open a window in his R3 GUI demo.
for me doing 2D using opengl always apeared to me as using a nuclear 
bomb to kill a single poor tiny cute ant ...(ok ant isn't cute...)
that doesn't means it doesn"t have it's grace.
things like transparency could be handled a way faster using opengl
ofcourse the software speudo antialiasing  u can find in AGG is just 
 a joke compared to  X16 antialiasing buffers that can be found on 
now in dayx accelarting video cards.
comparing AGG antialising and opengl antialiasing is like comparing 
the sun and the moon ...
the moon shines but it's only due to the refraction of the light 
comming from the sun that's prety much what the normalisation algorithms 
using in AGG does and they completly sux with tiny chars fonts... 
making them so blur or fuzzy as you like that you can't read them 
...
but in agg you don't have  a proper way to handle fonts who wants 
to have flat texels to represent is document or hundreds of  png 
files in memory ... and that where glut and other extensions try 
to give solutions but the réalisaton is in général ugly.
but in opengl  you don't have  a proper way to handle fonts who wants 
to have flat texels to represent is document or hundreds of  png 
files in memory ... and that where glut and other extensions try 
to give solutions but the réalisaton is in général ugly.
Graham
15-Jul-2010
[2005]
And Cairo?
shadwolf
15-Jul-2010
[2006x4]
one thing wich is really needed is the ability to have transparent 
windows no border no title no background ... a lot of things fun 
could be done once having that
graham in general when it starts with cairon or anothing context 
... that's a bad sign  i mean rebol doesnt formally mention that 
...
the draw context in a face is always there ... it's embeded in it 
no need to say HEY YOU KNOW WHAT  NOW WE WILL DO A SQUARE IN THIS 
WINDOWS AND PUT SOME CONTENT in it using some engine
that's a cool concept to séparated things and make a dedicated widget 
that handle this rendering style and wich is mixed with common other 
widgets