World: r3wp

the scroller handle looks as though it is illuminated from a different 
side to the scroller ??

no, all parts of the scoller share the same gradient

but... all this needs to be reimplemented. it's from the first skin 
I did for VID3.4.

so what are you calling this one?  R3GUI ?

yes

ok, is there any interest in reviewing the dialog and validation 
system? I expect to start implementing these things soon, so they 
better be right.

I have interest but little time right now Henrik. What do I need 
to set up here to review and comment?

Generally, always use this (please download as it's on a low bandwidth 
connection):

http://rebol.hmkdesign.dk/files/r3/gui/r3-gui.r3

For validation, a proposal was written:


http://rebol.hmkdesign.dk/files/r3/gui/docs/validation-proposal.html

This has been translated into a prototype:

http://rebol.hmkdesign.dk/files/r3/gui/validation.r3


and then a set of notes on how the prototype works has been written:


http://rebol.hmkdesign.dk/files/r3/gui/docs/validation-prototype.html

Umm.. isn' t this just vid-ext-kit stuff?

no? none of it is. it's written from scratch.

it looks very similar to the vid ext kit design

there are ideas from it, but the implementation is different

hmm, just reading the beginning of the doc - validator-indicator 
- I hope that noone of those things gets in our own way of doing 
things, and is not pushed on the user?

I mean - the display of the indicator ...

Pekr, I'm not sure what you mean. You need to indicate validation 
somehow.

and building it into the style we need to validate is as far as I 
can tell, a whole lot more work.

pekr, it's optional

No, quite the opposite - I feared that all styles will contain that, 
if not, then it is ok ...

yes, validation is a simple indicator style. the "catch" is that 
you need to place it one place to the right of the style to validate. 
Carl also talked about doing the validation action itself as a reactor, 
but the role of reactors is still not clearly defined to me.

Well, I think an alternative might be to change the color of the 
field instead ..

instead of having a dedicated icon

Probably a bit different topic, albeit related - in one DOS app generator 
I worked with, there was a possibility to e.g.:

- init form values (e.g. when you create new record)

- set 'update trigger - you could have multiple update actions (it 
was quite primitive, but sufficient - operators like +, -, replace), 
so e.g. entering some value into 'amount field, could trigger an 
update into other field on the form, or later during the commit, 
to even a different table.

- getting/setting values of the form/panel is surely going to come 
IIRC

AFAIR in dbase I used to change the field colours depending on validation

but the role of reactors is still not clearly defined to me
 - you have Carl on your GUI world, no - so just ask him :-)

graham, that's not a good alternative:

1. you create multiple ways of indicating validation

2. you may not be validating a field, but an entire panel or any 
other style

3. you still need to alter the style itself, which will be a ton 
of work.

Graham - it might not be only field, but also other styles, but it 
might be one of the options  :-)

give me an example where field validation is insufficient

Pekr:


- init already happens on window open. you can specifically validate 
and display init symbols in the indicators.
- possible to do with attach or set reactor
- panel validation already works

Henrik - the proposal does not need to alter the style, right? That 
is indeed good. But - I still have to think about the form design 
- do I have to count for the space for the validator? I talk about 
some alignment stuff ...

Pekr, correct. What you need to do is attach an option for how you 
want to validate. Then you need to place the validation-indicator. 
Then the rest is supposed to take care of itself, auto-updating, 
etc.

count for space: well, it should not be necessary as it simply is 
another style that you place after the style to validate:

panel 2 [
	field validate-indicator
	field validate-indicator
	field validate-indicator
]

like that.

graham, not insufficient. inconsistent.

The issue I have with validation icons is that it makes the whole 
display much busier

that's a small problem compared to working validation into each style

if your form is very large you will appreciate the need for consistency 
as you only have to check for red Xes to see where the problem is, 
and the validation system also automatically focuses the first problem.

also fields will eventually become sub-fields in tight panels, where 
the fields themselves may not be incorrect, but the overall value 
combination may be wrong, such as that for a date field and that 
can be for multiple different reasons. this is why the valid-indicator 
would contain a tool-tip to describe the problem. you would be eventually 
able to click on it, to get an overview or deeper help on how to 
solve the issue via the help system (not yet written).

Henrik - any progress on new styles, integration of resizing model 
into current system, etc.? You surely can't do business apss with 
just buttons and fields being the only styles available? :-) What 
is currently being done in the R3GUI area? (as View transition to 
Extension has mostly finished?)

Now we need to get R3-GUI to work again with the new hostkit. Will 
be finished this week.

We work on business apps (that's always our main focus). These have 
highest priority.

buidl & deployment system is currently done so we can do large scale 
projects.

call/wait is something we will need.

Pekr, I plan to begin implementation of dialogs and validation, but 
the plan has kept being pushed back due to lack of feedback from 
the community.

call/wait .... kissing your hands! :-) That is an integration problem 
with R3, thanks for that ....

As for business apps - that sounds fine, it is just that we did not 
see e.g. list of styles, you might need. Is there e.g. a tree-view? 
Tabs? Table is there IIRC (there is a screenshot on henrik's site)

You can't write business apps without these widgets .. so ... take 
it easy Pekr!

Henrik, don't you see why you're not getting any feedback?  You guys 
shut everyone out for months and now suddenly want their help with 
feedback.  Human nature doesn't respond well to such treatment.

graham, and I posted all the relevant information to validation and 
dialogs a week ago, the build system 2 weeks ago. zero feedback.

when is validation triggered? In DOS app generator I mentioned, there 
was such a functionality, that you could limit values to type - it 
was called 'vtg - variable-to-get, and it was used e.g. when you 
wanted to limit selection to floppy drive A, B values, etc. :-) Nowadays 
we have list-boxes, but I still can imagine special kind of fields, 
e.g. Date, IP field with various masks, allowing to type only numbers 
for e.g. But that would require validation being triggered on per-press 
basis ... just thinking out loudly ....

currently validation is triggered on window open to init state. then 
you can call it on the window as needed and it runs also as a reactor, 
hence every time a field is unfocused or a button is pressed. it 
also is triggered on window close, given the button that closes the 
window is a dialog button.

as for the type of validation, that is completely customizable. you 
can also scope validation, so you can say that a panel of fields 
may not be empty, by adding that option to the panel instead of each 
field.