World: r3wp

Hence "slightly" :)

Hm, thinking about multi-line tabs - if you have so many tabs, it's 
probably a good idea to redo your UI.

I am not sure I like tabs in multiple rows :-) What .e.g Mikrotik 
does is, that they add small button right after the arrows, which 
reads "...", and it displays menu (we could use listbox), showing 
list of all tabs ...

I think that having automated multiple row tabs would complicate 
the design

Yeah. The tree view on the left has been a good substitute for multiline 
tabs in recent preference dialogs.

Rebolke - or Graham might use nested panels, no? Each panel can contain 
its own tab style ....

Yes, that's possible even right now.

Henrik: "The help system is what will allow us to use layouts and 
gobs as tool-tips for any face ..." - IIRC, Carl wanted to introduce 
kind of layers. I still request this feature, as well as multiple 
draw block styles :-)

multiple draw blocks work.

Rebolek - yes, and that is my point ... now I will create a screenshot 
for you, showing the mikrotik feature ...

Pekr, the help system might be done with some kind of layers. So 
far, I'm not sure Carl's specs are going to be followed. That depends 
on the architecture.

Multi-line tabs is generally considered bad design.

are there any "Carl's specs" for layers at all?

there was a spec document which specified layers, guides, etc. but 
it's lost now.

why is something like that lost? :-)

I just can't find it. Spent hours looking for it. Carl can't find 
it either.

Nested tabs are often cited on sites that document and discuss bad 
UI design.

Nested tabs are just workaround to achieve multple row tabs ...

Which are also considered bad design.

As are scrolling tab bars that don't show all of the tabs at once.

The "bad design" part being "too many tabs, use something other than 
tabs as a structuring model".

exactly.

Here's two examples from Mikrotik RouterOS, which migh eventually 
serve as an inspiration:

http://xidys.com/mikrotik/mikrotik-collapsable-ui.jpg
http://xidys.com/mikrotik/mikrotik-many-tabs.jpg

Yes, that should be possible.

and also with d'n'd reordering :)

I am fine with arrows, although some listbox/menu is probably faster 
solution ....

btw - in DOS era, we had one concept in UI, although it regarded 
only the grid - each user could save his/her grid setup. Now as reordering 
of tabs is possible, it would be maybe nice to allow to save UI set-up. 
But I did not think about such concept in deep, so not sure how it 
would eventually complicate the matter ...

Save UI setup - hm, yes, that should be possible, at last tabs order. 
There's not much else to save right now :)

last used tab, last focused item. there are a few things to save, 
but as long as they can be retrieved and set in code, it should be 
possible to do.

speaking of which: would it not be a good idea to have functions 
that can extract and impose facets on a face in one line of code?

like set-facet and get-facet ?

yes, only for the entire face.

that would make it simple to save a state

seems there are some issues with LOAD and SAVE in A110, so no r3-gui 
build today.

Hm, we may try it to see, how it works.

Imagine saving the size, ordering, freezening of grid columns for 
e.g. It would be tiresome for user set it each time app starts .... 
just an idea ...

Yes, I see no problem in allowinf this.

I disagree.  Nested tabs are not the same as multiple row tabs.  
With the former you can effectively book mark a deeply nested page 
.. the latter you can not

bad design
 vs "good design" is just a matter of opinion ...

there is no intrinsic rightness or badness

I agree that the tree view has replaced multi-line tabs in recent 
years.

There might be slightly different usability issues with nested vs. 
multiline tabs. Multiline tabs are plain confusing (where is the 
right button?), where nested tabs can be disorienting (where am I 
or what mode am I in?). I've built an app in VID Extension kit using 
the latter method, and the app can sometimes be disorienting to use, 
so I had to help out by using different colored backgrounds.

Doesn't the tab colours help orient you?

actually not, since some tabs contain nearly identical UIs. people 
are not used to looking at the tabs at any other time than when selecting 
them.

Well, I have several hundred screens in my app ... not sure what 
else I can do to organize them

Also the nested tabs allows me to refer to a particular screen by 
a path notation

I was surprised at how "narrow-scoped" some users are, when working 
in a program, almost down to a single face, not noticing the larger 
context or organization of the program, particularly if the program 
has many modes (tabs). I think that its important to design UIs around 
clearly marked mode of operation, or even better: Have mode-less 
operation.

Are nested trees any better?

MS approaches this by using a "control panel" of icons

I prefer flat list that can be searched, when there are no other 
options. Old MUI preferences windows on the Amiga and the KDE configuration 
or MacOSX settings program comes to mind.