World: r3wp

Ladislav - my guess is, that what  Graham had in mind is the demo, 
load-gui, etc. As we understood, demo was not a priority for RMA 
...

if my understanding is correct, load-gui in RMA's releases loads 
RMA's GUI?

yes

If something does not work, it is just because what you call "Carl's 
GUI" is the old version, while the newer version of the code are 
(somewhat improperly) called "RMA GUI". Nevertheless, everybody crying 
for it, can easily take it and update everything that he sees fit.

The demo is still a good case for catching obvious bugs, so even 
if it doesn't work in the short term, due to focusing on a few specific 
styles, we get a lot of good feedback on it.

The "show-native" is another case of Kaj's reinventing the wheel. 
It has been corrected almost a month ago (the correction was even 
posted by me above), wondering where Kaj is getting his %r3-gui.r3 
file?

Just making few notes:

1. we don't push anyone to use/accept R3GUI from RMA


2. anyone who is missing "Carl's GUI" can download it at http://www.rebol.com/r3/gui.r
and happily use and enhance it. (It really works much better than 
RMA version...especially with A111 :-))


3. Having 'good looking' demo doesn't mean anything when the system 
cannot be used in real application. (That was the first thing we 
realized when checking the "Carl's GUI" and that's why we continued 
to improve our own version based on Carl's design)

4. It has been said by defferent RMA-members:

-this project is still in 'alpha', we are working frequently on it 
to be better
-we are publishing/sharing our work-in-progress code
-we invite any good contribution to the wip code

So far the major reaction to our effort is none,negative or contra-productive 
here even from some people who have experiences with mangement of 
larger projects(*sigh*). I don't understand why.

This has of course nothing to do with constructive critics which 
we hear, discuss and think about every useful comment (even if it 
is not accepted in the end). Unfortunately we could count 'useful 
comments' in this group on fingers on both hands max.


5. even with all the negative energy that is 'pumped' on us from 
Rebol3 we will continue with releasing our work and inform people 
here about the progress etc.

So to follow point 5. above here is some update:


The next public release will be postponed to the end of the next 
week (current estimation). As we need to do some 'major' changes 
to the resizing concept. We need to add more flexibility to the system 
internals to be able implement proper column/row resizing (also used 
for dividers)  etc.


Our current internal version have lot of improvements but it will 
be better to wait a bit to not confuse developers with 'obsolete 
methods' that will be changed in the planned major update.


We are also preparing much more documentation to make things easier 
to understand.

Cyphre - just some friendly opinion exchange, hopefully you will 
be able to understand my explanations (which don't necessarily represent 
my exact point of view):


- most ppl here are well aware of the fact, that RMA is a business 
entity, and hence has absolute right to do what makes sense for its 
business. The trick is, that in the end, it does not work for ppl, 
I will tell why later.


- The point above is even more difficult to understand, as RMA is 
offering its work for free, yet ppl still complain to something (including 
me of course)


- What might have failed is, that ppl might think, that accepting 
SCRUM method will mean, that we have finally found a viable model 
for  general R3 development, which will allow Carl to stay available 
 to small agile team of developers, isolated from the noise.


- Ppl were expecting GUI to probably appear in 2-3 month period. 
Althought Carl's GUI worked mostly on the surface, it was something 
ppl could experience. RMA's aproach is much broader aproach to usability 
and architecture. But - that resulted into refusal to provide usable 
demo. There was some attempt to provide style browser, but it was 
highly unusable to attract ppl.


- RMA seems not to understand (or it is not its priority) the importance 
of visuals. You surely remember the "design sells" claims, which 
are know for ages. Do you remember your Rebcon AGG demo? So much 
joy, so much applause. The current look of the GUI and its metrics 
just ruined the "hmm, nice" first look experience, and for no apparent 
reason, then constantly repeating "the skin will be done later". 
If so, it should not have been changed in the first place. (After 
porting the demo, my next area to play with is to try to play with 
material system, etc., and box-model style metrics)


- Ppl are well aware, that RMA is mostly on its own, and that even 
SCRUM methog did not work in regards to keep Carl attracted to such 
method in the long run. We are now facing the worst ever period of 
R3 development, where Carl apparently has some other projects, and 
R3 is almost stalled. Ppl are clever enough to realise, that we are 
being fed with some mid-time blogs, which should keep us distrated 
from the facts (huh, rebol file suffix importance anyone?), and we 
are also facing rushed releases as A111 is, and 2.7.8. was. You are 
free to not agree, but that is how I personally feel about the situation 
towards the RT. In the past I would probably write some letter to 
Carl, but I am at the point where I think, that RT is effectively 
burrying R3 under month by month. So - Carl is not able to find free 
time to continue with R3 development on a regular basis, and noone 
is denying his right to personal life, but - the fact is, that R3 
situation is at least - worrying. We wait for the beta plan for more 
than 4 months! If someone does not have time to even think how to 
proceed, then it is probably time to close the shop ... or open-source 
... but that will not happen. So - welcome the Amiga fate ... 


- And before someone else adds it, I will add it myself, as I believe 
I have my points right :-) Amen! Could I be wrong? Of course I could. 
You can easily state - hey, the situation is not like that, we know 
Carl works on this or that. Well - RMA knows, but that's it - the 
rest of the community is kept in information embargo from Carl. And 
that is difficult to deal with for many of us, who really like REBOL, 
and would like to see some coordinated development and the light 
in the end of the tunel once again ....

And now also - back to point 5, away from politics :-)


- New resizing model. Will API change too? Or is is just internal 
change, so I don't need to care about it, apart from knowing, that 
in some cases, resizing model will be more efficient?


- Is RMA building any commercial app using R3 GUI right now? Because 
I still might miss something, but style-wise I find it difficult 
to imagine, how it could be used. (Tables, lists, tree, area, tabs 
missing or buggy?)

- What I am interested at more than in the skin is better system 
metrics (spacing). Is there doc describing the box model, and how 
should it be used? E.g. I have styles like text, panel, button - 
what should be put in margin, edge, padding?

Pekr, re your questions:

-new resizing changes: there will be 'api changes' otherwise we wouldn't 
postpone the release. The resizing will be more flexible. (All that 
has been benn written 3 msg above ;))

-box model: we have box model documentation but this is now outdated 
(that's why it was not added to the release yet).  We are working 
on the updated docs for the new release (already stated in the message 
above).

SCRUM: Well, the fundamental requirement for everything is that someone 
works on it. If this is not the case, every method looks like failed. 
But SCRUM is definetly not the problem. RMA uses it.

Expectations: That might be correct... RMA doesn't do expectation 
management, we do result management. So, whatever people expect and 
why, I can't read their minds.

visuals: We understand, but no priority at the moment.

R3: You all know that Carl is on his own. So, he can spend every 
hour only once. And you all know that Rebol is no commercial success. 
The rest is common sense...

And, we don't have any secret versions, code base or so. So it's 
mostly the same for us as for you. At least the result is the same.

Nevertheless, I don't see R3 Core is a show-stopper for RMA.

Robert - you have a business case. For many of us, REBOL is kind 
of hoby, a church, where we need a leader, that's why Carl's being 
greatly missed being more publicly active :-)

Ladislav "The "show-native" is another case of Kaj's reinventing 
the wheel. It has been corrected almost a month ago (the correction 
was even posted by me above), wondering where Kaj is getting his 
%r3-gui.r3 file?"

I implore you to read the discussion better - with an open mind. 
For example, the r3-gui.r3 file is from your own distribution

Our distribution does not contain the show-native since January 28

I suggest you to read the discussion, you could spare yourself the 
need to reinvent the wheel

Kaj, I bet your r3-gui.r3 was definitely not the latest version from 
http://www.rm-asset.com/code/downloads/files/r3-gui.r3

The bug you showed has been fixed in the release from 28.1.2011 (see 
the announce group)


It looks more like you have been loading the r3-gui.r3 from Josko's 
http://www.colineau.fr/rebol/downloads/tests-R3Gui.ziparchive ;-)

Yeah, I remember the 'unless fix. But - it might have scolled away 
pretty fast -lot's of chatte here ....

That provokes another request from me: please stop presenting "political 
opinions" here. The purpose of this group is to discuss the GUI.

Pekr, yes, nevertheles, I just wanted to correct Kaj, that the version 
he used was definitely not comming from our server but from some 
third party test archive...hope it helps.

OT: How about creating an RMA group? Whom do I have to ask?

Altme group?

Cyphre: "Kaj, I bet your r3-gui.r3 was definitely not the latest 
version from http://www.rm-asset.com/code/downloads/files/r3-gui.r3

The bug you showed has been fixed in the release from 28.1.2011 (see 
the announce group)"

Yes, it was your latest version. Other than Ladislav going on about 
it, this point is not worth discussing. The discussion clearly shows 
that Jocko helped me solve this situation

Or in any case, I made sure to also test with your version, as the 
discussion shows. It was solved, I didn't think about it further, 
and I never brought it forward as a complaint

The fact, that you are insisting you used our r3-gui.r3 version while 
at the same time proving yourself wrong stating that you always ran 
a different version not obtained from us puzzles me. How can you 
describe "state of the gui" in such case is totally beyond my understanding.

I may have missed the latest version, but the one in my zip has the 
same date as the one at this link. http://www.rm-asset.com/code/downloads/files/r3-gui.r3
.i.e; 9-Dec-2010/10:32:04+1:00. May I suggest to put a version nr 
to r3-gui in order to avoid any mistake ?

And where can I find an up to date version ?

Regarding the date: currently, it is just the date of the file loading 
the whole GUI, which has not changed since December.

We shall find a way, how to put in a more informative value.

So, r3-gui.r3 is just a loader, not the whole GUI code?

The r3-gui.r3 is the whole code, but it "gets" the information from 
the main (loader) file

Will be corrected.

The fact, that you are insisting you used our r3-gui.r3 version while 
at the same time proving yourself wrong stating that you always ran 
a different version not obtained from us puzzles me. How can you 
describe 

state of the gui" in such case is totally beyond my understanding."

You are puzzled because you are putting words in my mouth. I never 
stated I never ran your version. In fact, I implored you to read 
the opposite in the discussion archive

The file with the whole code should at least have a modified date 
that matches when it was last built, or match the most recent modified 
date of its component parts.

Ladislav, are you now forbidding me to speak on publicly available 
projects that I tried?

the r3-gui.r3 should be obtained from:

http://www.rm-asset.com/code/level1/r3-gui/

The link on your website is the link Jocko mentioned

If I load RMA's original GUI in Jocko's R3, I get the same result
 - this is a citate, proving:

1) you stated you used our r3-gui.r3

2) you have proven yourself wrong by obtaining a result that can 
be obtained only from Jocko's code

Whatever, Ladislav. Playground fights are years behind me

Ladislav, are you now forbidding me to speak on publicly available 
projects that I tried?

 - no, I am just suggesting that you are trying to speak publicly 
 about project you *did not try*

Whatever. How will I demonstrate software tomorrow without trying 
it? ReBorCon must be the best magic show ever!