World: r3wp

... understood ...

is Maxim's Liquid stuff not a good source of inspiration for this 
kind of thing?

it might be

I think that liquid might be complete engine, which does not make 
sense to use only some ideas from, but dunno. Max would have to comment 
...

Thanks for bringing this up Henrik.  I was going to say the same 
thing about Max's work. His is a general data flow engine. As usual, 
I think the first step is to clearly define the goal. If REBOL is 
about messaging, attaching faces is a very special case. Even limiting 
the recipient of a message to being a face, you might want more than 
a direct facet mapping.

As I see it, you would want to map any facet in face 1 to any facet 
in face 2. Afterwards, you can judge whether that makes sense or 
not. This could be by checking for accepted datatypes in the target 
face at attach-time, but maybe that's too simple?


Also facet attachment should happen on as many faces as you need. 
If you want a slider to control 20 other faces with different facets 
as input and output, that should be possible. It's starting to look 
like a flow engine, so maybe we should take a look at what Maxim 
has done.

Another issue is that while this should be simple to do in the dialect, 
it should also be possible to create and destroy connections during 
runtime and make it abstracted enough to be possible to do with a 
GUI editor.

Yes, we are on the same page. I see this as built upon a messaging 
infrastructure. It doesn't need to be elaborate today, in what it 
supports, but the design should allow us to extend and build on it. 
i.e. we need a message bus that we can tap into, inside an app, interprocess, 
and distributed.

What I've noticed about Carl's styles is that he tries to do as much 
of that intra-face communication inside the styles.


That is simple to do at first, but doesn't scale very well, because 
we will have a lot of different styles.


Still, some parts could be inherent to the face or style, in that 
the face or style holds a list of actions to perform and then some 
type of evaluator (I've never built these things, so I don't know 
what to call it). There is DO-STYLE, but a formalization of how to 
store the actions inside the face is needed, both when specifying 
face attachments in the layout and when accessing the face attachments 
using a general access function like DO-STYLE or DO-FACE.


The formalization is needed to allow a scalable number of actions 
or attachments stored in each face. This could simply be a block 
of blocks or functions that are bound to both source and target face. 
In order to trigger the action, just DO the block or function and 
the magic unfolds.

Whatever we come up with, it should not be too much complex. Elements 
should be able to register/unregister to particular messages and 
receive events. The engine should be well isolated. Of course the 
question is, where does it lead us :-) We will have to wait for Max, 
to explain us liquid. But - Carl is always right in one aspect - 
if you can't understand the code in few hours, then it is wrong and 
noone will be able to understand it.

could you have gui for other os (linux and osx) now ?

Probably not until it moves to be an Extension and part of the hostkit?

That would be a start, but I wouldn't expect it to be supported for 
those platforms on day one of the new host kit.

However, it will allow the rest of us to help get it working on those 
platforms.

Hmm, I would've expected Maxim to jump in and give his 2 cents when 
he stopped by...

Liquid is the perfect engine to add to R3 GUI.


After years of use in many different situations, I am now very confidents 
in its capabilities.


Liquid is a generic engine, allowing you to tell DATA to message 
DATA.  


This means you can use the same system that you'd use for the GUI, 
for the data itself, and then just plug it together.


Because Liquid was designed to allow very advanced procedural computation 
at a fraction of the complexity of other systems I've used I'd say 
its the best system we'll ever be able to build for R3.


Wrapping liquids within faces and the view dialect is rarely more 
than 5-10 lines of extra code, but then, you don't need to write 
"action" code afterwards.

I've JUST finished work on the first public version of a graphic 
editing software which will go public shortly.  It is built using 
Liquid extensively, using my glob technology (a.k.a. liquid paint).


In this project, I'm even using liquid to do automatic declinations 
of web originated information, some of it directly connected to buttons 
and fields.

Changing some parameters will automatically update other fields and 
button states when the web query is done.  


The software cleans itself up when some other part of the software 
changes internal data.

this is the true value of liquid. :-)

liquid even has data filtering mechanism built-in... so you can patch 
type conversion right in you data, for example, and connect any other 
compatible datatype without needing to build ANY extra code.


Did you notice the detail... I didn't say type conversion in your 
GUI... 


so If your age is supposed to be an integer... pluging it into a 
field can actually make the field an integer field, without the field 
knowing anything about integers.   :-)

It ain't perfect if you don't do it !

anyone can learn liquid.   its dead easy.


its the concept of messaging and dataflow itself which is challenging.

the proof is in the drinking ...

I like to use fields where the prompt is an image in the background 
which disappears on focus, and reappears on loss of focus unless 
some text is present

so if Liquid is perfect, what's the next step? Henrik needs to evaluate 
it? Does that mean that Maxim needs to spend time going over things 
with Henrik? Does Carl have to approve it himself - i.e. does he 
need to spend some time looking it over?

History tells us that nothing will happen ... there is no next step.

Petr, could you push Carl to do something wrt Liquid? At least  to 
spend an hour or two on this or to just rule it out if he's already 
formed some opinion about it. Hope he doesn't though - I thought 
the idea with R3 was to not be so conservative with incorporating 
community contributions.

Maxim, if we want to learn liquid, which version do you recommend 
to use: the one already published, or another, that you could publish 
in the coming days/months ?

We should be shown some liquid usage example, the simple one, to 
understand the concept. Then we should be shown more complex working 
app. If liquid is general flow engine (usefull also to non GUI parts), 
it could be added to rebol as a concept, and maybe even made native, 
but I am not sure if it fits the language or not. Maybe it should 
be available in the form of module/extension, dunno ...

AdrianS: I asked Carl to resurface and provide development team with 
promissed GUI related docs. I hope Carl will be back soon, he worked 
on moving Altme services to new servers (as can be seen in his latest 
blog post)

and working on altme server improvements

I'm having a stupid day where nothing works, so I can't do any work 
right now. I'm not sure it's a good idea to just wrap any flow engine 
on top of the GUI. The idea is simply to . We have to remember that 
it's about the idea

ok, AltME doesn't work either...

The idea is simply to make it very simple to interconnect faces. 
We have to remember that it's about the idea, not that a really fancy 
flow engine is the solution.

Also I'm being slowed down because of a project that I'm doing for 
Robert that takes time to finish. But please, continue the discussion.

we will, and as I informed you privately, Carl will hopefully resurface 
soon too ...

where is actual/latest VID 3.4 code stored? I would like to see, 
how 'attach works, and what it allows, then look into your docs, 
and try to think about it for a while ... well, I will most probably 
not come with anything anyway, but I would at least like to understand 
what we area talking about here ...

you can see it inside R3 chat

Steeve, how's progress on the r3 gui chat client?

I have spoken with Carl in the past about liquid, he REALLY likes 
the concept, he was mezmerized when I did a quick demo of it at Paris 
devcon.


But at that time, I wasn't trying to convince him because I didn't 
have enough real-world experience using it, and still had a few reserves 
about it myself.

Adding liquid to R3 is actually something Carl looks forward to, 
we chatted about it.

A lot more world experience is needed before something unknown is 
added to the GUI

The nice thing about liquid is that its an API more than anything 
and you can model it to do alot of different things, by just changing 
a few properties and implementing one or two functions.


All the nitty gritty is already taken care of and you don't have 
to play around in that unless you really want to create special and 
ultra-optimized nodes whih I very rarely need to do myself.

Especially something that is hard to understand

Remember that Carl rewrote vid as he found Gab's vid too hard to 
use

yep.

Although easy to use as a design aim contradicts his new stance that 
Rebol is not for everyone!

the trick with adding Liquid to R3 VID is to integrate liquid INTO 
VID and not the other way around.  in the VID dialect, or as a few 
function calls which just basically create a predefined node type, 
and links it up.

Graham, i try some idea on my own GUI currently

Your own GUI?

in my soon to be released application, the dataflow aspect of the 
code is less than 20% of the time spent, yet it represents at least 
80% of the actual usefull software capabilities.  


most of it was fixing View and VID themselves... the styles, the 
event mechanism and bugs, AGG bugs, enhancing http, etc.

i made some in the past, but they all died before adulthood