World: r3wp

ok another question i know i'm a bother ... but if  us tiny bunch 
of crazy fans we don't ask us silly asks we will never get steps 
further and get rebol writed in history. So the crazy is is why not 
doing rebol in java instead of C or C++ ?


I mean now in days having rebol based on java what are the possible 
gains ?

1) Easier way to handle multiplateform

2) Big big java comunity and so getting strong specialised people 
to enhance rebol VM will be easier.
3) no need to adapt algorithms across plateform.
4) all the curent technologies are adapted to java. 

the bad points are:


1) jre weights alot and rebol being based on it will not be stand 
alone so it will need the jre to be installed to run
2) goodbye AGG 
3) interfacing with java libraries can be problematic.

I think the good points overcome the bad points.

but the kind of interface we can do with java is that -> 
http://uploads.siteduzero.com/files/111001_112000/111843.jpg

i know rebol wants to be something else ... but that's the main reason 
why rebol isn't not being use more extensively and is so much undergrounded...

i like hte idea of rebol being something else based on the language 
at fame ... REbol can be thinked as an abstraction why using this 
language instead of this other to build rebol ? Since the goal is 
to make rebol way to build software the way to build software widely 
in the futur ... s

Add a few bad points:

4) We would have to throw all of the current code away and start 
over.

5) The semantics of REBOL have very little in common with Java, so 
we would be very limited in what Java libraries we could use.

6) The JVM is much worse at dynamic languages than its competitors, 
such as the CLR.
7) SLOW.
This might tip the tables in the other direction.

Most of the Java technologies mentioned in positive point 4 would 
be unavailable or awkward to use because of the semantic mismatch.

Brianh's bad point: 
 

4) hum yes but maybe you will attrack some more hella programers 
ultra specialised that will help us do the translation ...

5) the semantic and datatypes of rebol have few in comon with C/C++ 

6) yes but looking at the jobs offers now in day most of them aorund 
70% are based on java jdbc job offers ... 

7) slow but now we have 4 to 6 cores processors that was a good excuses 
10 years ago but today that's not...

But if you make this change: "doing rebol in java instead of C or 
C++" -> "doing another rebol in java in addition to the current C/C++ 
version"

Then you can get rid of bad points 1, 2 and 4. And add a good point: 
5) R3 for Android.

brianH Rebol on android i say Woooooooooooooooohooooooooooooo that 
smells good 

and iphone too since apple doesn't seems to be willing to support 
flash but have no problems with java

4) "ultra specialised that will help us do the translation" Manual 
translation. The code would not be comparable, and the entire implementation 
strategy would need to change because of the differences between 
C and Java.

5) REBOL doesn't have classes. And accessing C libraries from REBOL 
is awkward too.

brianH any way you know scripting language have the reputation to 
be the slow pokes in computing area ... so basing them on java shouldn't 
make the difference

You are underestimating just how fast R3 is, when compared to other 
interpreted languages. Orders of magnitude better.

ok lets be frantic and compare rebol with tcl/tk, perl, python,  
ruby. All those scripts langage have in common to use GNU bases main 
portable libs so the community making them grow and known is bigger 
than our community 1000 times ...

It's the replacement idea that is bad. We can make a vaguely REBOL-like 
language for Java that is good enough to interoperate with the C-based 
R3, but throwing away the R3 codebase like you said and starting 
over would kill the language and make us wait another 5-10 years. 
The "instead of" part is a BAD IDEA.

BrianH R3 is stuck in alpha since 3 years and it will take 3 more 
years to be officially released ... and mean while we keep a design 
based on  90's year design  i mean it implicates too a lot of difficulties 
that can't be overcomed easyly

Perl, Python and Ruby are compiled, and so is TCL now. They are not 
interpreted.

R3 is not stuck in alpha. What you are doing is suggesting throwing 
away a codebase and starting over. Perl 6 did that and they are still 
in alpha after 10 years.

BrianH yes that can be a side project ... but it have to be seriously 
done not another abandoned clone project that convince no one and 
get no support...

As long as the clones are (L)GPL they will get no support.

BrainH yes they are compiled but using the Glib the GTK+ libs etc 
GNU libs and tools so people feels more confortable to contribute

BrianH but what is the purpose to have a deposited thing no one want 
to use ...

I am saying that you can't compare their speed to that of REBOL, 
because REBOL's semantics require interpretation. All successful 
languages on the JVM are compiled, because interpreters are just 
too slow on that platform.

truth is you say to 100  programers java they all knows what it's 
about  you say ruby 60% of them eard about it you say rebol in the 
best case if you have 2 guys that eard about it you are lucky

So? That is not an excuse to do the number-one worst thing that you 
can ever do as a programmer.

can we keep rebol in the shadows doesn't it impact it's spread to 
keep it in the actual model ...

BrianH i heard alot java sux etc ... but truth is it's the most wanted 
language now in day ... and you can't tell it will be better or not 
for rebol we didn't tryed ... and if java is not your prefered ok 
how about mono (the GPL ed  C# package) but mono have less visibility 
than java.

I have no problem with there being a semi-compatible R3 clone based 
on Java, and if I buy an Android phone I will start such a clone. 
But it will not replace R3 because that code is useful for many people 
*now*, and doesn't have any of the significant downsides of the JVM 
and its ilk, which is part of what makes it useful. And any clone 
that is based on (L)GPL can't share code with R3, so anyone who wants 
to help the community can't contribute it it.

Shadwolf: Java is the most wanted *language*, not platform. It's 
the platform that sucks.

The platform sucking is why there are so many Java jobs, because 
Java is the new COBOL.

brianH thing is no one consider rebol as a reliable programing solution 
.. apart a hundred of crazy us ...  you know sometimes the marketing 
thing is better than the truth ask microsoft about it :)

I don't have to. If I considered their opinion to be valid, I would 
be working for them.

and in that hundred of fanatics you have only 10 to 20 guys participating 
to the REBOL project actively ... personally i don't feel motivated 
to help apporting my know how to a project that will feed someone 
else without retribution i think as american you understand my point 
buissness is buissness ... I don't work for free for a project that 
will bring money to someone else.. that's plain and simple ... And 
it will be different if it was organised as a foundation people give 
the money they want and then the monney is splitted to remunerate 
the contributions according to their importance ...

I have no problem with doing what it takes to get REBOL interoperating 
with Java and .NET (particularly Silverlight). It's just a matter 
of resources. It's the "instead of" idea that is bad.

I don't work for free for a project that will bring money to someone 
else

 - So much for any community, free software or open source project 
 then. Stick to proprietary software or work-for-hire.

brianH we are not anough to end properly R3 in a time span that don't 
mean a decade ... so the instead of is in the actual situation a 
logical thing we can't be doing 3 kind of rebol VM at same time ...

brianH wrong in the worst case i can retain my ideas and improvements 
for ruby for myself and then make my own monney on selling my work 
... wich is out of consideration in rebol ...

You can't make money off of selling improvements to Ruby itself. 
The development tools market doesn't work that way anymore. The way 
you make money is to make stuff with the tools, not to make the tools.

all i can do in rebol is selling the  programs i do using rebol... 
but what credibility i have imagine my clients how they work they 
give me specs i propose them to do it in rebol they say no because 
if you get any problem we the client will not be able to get easyly 
a substitute to you  to retake your work and get it enhanced ...

Since you haven't been participating as much, you don't know how 
far along we are, so you don't understand how incredibly dumb it 
would be to scrap the code base and start over. We are only working 
on one VM. If someone else wants to start another project, fine, 
but they should have a good case for allocating the resources, and 
not do anything to preclude others from helping them.

BrianH hum and no people asked for my help neither ... supposing 
i could bring some help which is not the case i think...

I have on many occasions asked for contributions and help, and many 
have answered. If you feel that you can't help, you will be missed 
but we will make do.

i know but my way to help is different but not uninterresting ... 
and franckly i'm maybe one  of the few more interrested in what can 
be done with rebol than what can be done to improve rebol ... what 
is the meaning of adding things if we already don't use what exists 
in rebol ?

If I start up a project for R3 interoperability with Java would you 
help? Don't worry, I won't use a (L)GPL license so you won't be prevented 
from working on other projects with the code you write.

Note: Interoperability, not necessarily cloning (unless that is what 
is required). Improving the development process on the Java platform 
would be the goal.

if i can if i have access to the whole source code, but i will try 
...  most of the time i need to see the big picture to get ideas 
on how to proceed ... a mono C# clone intent have been tryed 4 years 
ago it was spirit then sudently the author disapeared and that's 
it ...

Because Java sucks. This is why Scala and Clojure exist too.

(i just discorverd the font size growth button in altme i'm happy 
)

That was the aA button I mentioned :)

scala clojured never heard about them  sorry

BrianH yes indeed thank you i didn't read that part .... with such 
tiny fonts i don"t read all sorry ...