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World: r3wp

[!REBOL3]

shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3922]
i like hte idea of rebol being something else based on the language 
at fame ... REbol can be thinked as an abstraction why using this 
language instead of this other to build rebol ? Since the goal is 
to make rebol way to build software the way to build software widely 
in the futur ... s
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3923x2]
Add a few bad points:

4) We would have to throw all of the current code away and start 
over.

5) The semantics of REBOL have very little in common with Java, so 
we would be very limited in what Java libraries we could use.

6) The JVM is much worse at dynamic languages than its competitors, 
such as the CLR.
7) SLOW.
This might tip the tables in the other direction.
Most of the Java technologies mentioned in positive point 4 would 
be unavailable or awkward to use because of the semantic mismatch.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3925]
Brianh's bad point: 
 

4) hum yes but maybe you will attrack some more hella programers 
ultra specialised that will help us do the translation ...

5) the semantic and datatypes of rebol have few in comon with C/C++ 

6) yes but looking at the jobs offers now in day most of them aorund 
70% are based on java jdbc job offers ... 

7) slow but now we have 4 to 6 cores processors that was a good excuses 
10 years ago but today that's not...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3926]
But if you make this change: "doing rebol in java instead of C or 
C++" -> "doing another rebol in java in addition to the current C/C++ 
version"

Then you can get rid of bad points 1, 2 and 4. And add a good point: 
5) R3 for Android.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3927]
brianH Rebol on android i say Woooooooooooooooohooooooooooooo that 
smells good 

and iphone too since apple doesn't seems to be willing to support 
flash but have no problems with java
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3928]
4) "ultra specialised that will help us do the translation" Manual 
translation. The code would not be comparable, and the entire implementation 
strategy would need to change because of the differences between 
C and Java.

5) REBOL doesn't have classes. And accessing C libraries from REBOL 
is awkward too.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3929]
brianH any way you know scripting language have the reputation to 
be the slow pokes in computing area ... so basing them on java shouldn't 
make the difference
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3930]
You are underestimating just how fast R3 is, when compared to other 
interpreted languages. Orders of magnitude better.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3931]
ok lets be frantic and compare rebol with tcl/tk, perl, python,  
ruby. All those scripts langage have in common to use GNU bases main 
portable libs so the community making them grow and known is bigger 
than our community 1000 times ...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3932]
It's the replacement idea that is bad. We can make a vaguely REBOL-like 
language for Java that is good enough to interoperate with the C-based 
R3, but throwing away the R3 codebase like you said and starting 
over would kill the language and make us wait another 5-10 years. 
The "instead of" part is a BAD IDEA.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3933]
BrianH R3 is stuck in alpha since 3 years and it will take 3 more 
years to be officially released ... and mean while we keep a design 
based on  90's year design  i mean it implicates too a lot of difficulties 
that can't be overcomed easyly
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3934x2]
Perl, Python and Ruby are compiled, and so is TCL now. They are not 
interpreted.
R3 is not stuck in alpha. What you are doing is suggesting throwing 
away a codebase and starting over. Perl 6 did that and they are still 
in alpha after 10 years.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3936]
BrianH yes that can be a side project ... but it have to be seriously 
done not another abandoned clone project that convince no one and 
get no support...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3937]
As long as the clones are (L)GPL they will get no support.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3938x2]
BrainH yes they are compiled but using the Glib the GTK+ libs etc 
GNU libs and tools so people feels more confortable to contribute
BrianH but what is the purpose to have a deposited thing no one want 
to use ...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3940]
I am saying that you can't compare their speed to that of REBOL, 
because REBOL's semantics require interpretation. All successful 
languages on the JVM are compiled, because interpreters are just 
too slow on that platform.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3941]
truth is you say to 100  programers java they all knows what it's 
about  you say ruby 60% of them eard about it you say rebol in the 
best case if you have 2 guys that eard about it you are lucky
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3942]
So? That is not an excuse to do the number-one worst thing that you 
can ever do as a programmer.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3943x2]
can we keep rebol in the shadows doesn't it impact it's spread to 
keep it in the actual model ...
BrianH i heard alot java sux etc ... but truth is it's the most wanted 
language now in day ... and you can't tell it will be better or not 
for rebol we didn't tryed ... and if java is not your prefered ok 
how about mono (the GPL ed  C# package) but mono have less visibility 
than java.
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3945x3]
I have no problem with there being a semi-compatible R3 clone based 
on Java, and if I buy an Android phone I will start such a clone. 
But it will not replace R3 because that code is useful for many people 
*now*, and doesn't have any of the significant downsides of the JVM 
and its ilk, which is part of what makes it useful. And any clone 
that is based on (L)GPL can't share code with R3, so anyone who wants 
to help the community can't contribute it it.
Shadwolf: Java is the most wanted *language*, not platform. It's 
the platform that sucks.
The platform sucking is why there are so many Java jobs, because 
Java is the new COBOL.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3948]
brianH thing is no one consider rebol as a reliable programing solution 
.. apart a hundred of crazy us ...  you know sometimes the marketing 
thing is better than the truth ask microsoft about it :)
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3949]
I don't have to. If I considered their opinion to be valid, I would 
be working for them.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3950]
and in that hundred of fanatics you have only 10 to 20 guys participating 
to the REBOL project actively ... personally i don't feel motivated 
to help apporting my know how to a project that will feed someone 
else without retribution i think as american you understand my point 
buissness is buissness ... I don't work for free for a project that 
will bring money to someone else.. that's plain and simple ... And 
it will be different if it was organised as a foundation people give 
the money they want and then the monney is splitted to remunerate 
the contributions according to their importance ...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3951x2]
I have no problem with doing what it takes to get REBOL interoperating 
with Java and .NET (particularly Silverlight). It's just a matter 
of resources. It's the "instead of" idea that is bad.
I don't work for free for a project that will bring money to someone 
else

 - So much for any community, free software or open source project 
 then. Stick to proprietary software or work-for-hire.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3953x2]
brianH we are not anough to end properly R3 in a time span that don't 
mean a decade ... so the instead of is in the actual situation a 
logical thing we can't be doing 3 kind of rebol VM at same time ...
brianH wrong in the worst case i can retain my ideas and improvements 
for ruby for myself and then make my own monney on selling my work 
... wich is out of consideration in rebol ...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3955]
You can't make money off of selling improvements to Ruby itself. 
The development tools market doesn't work that way anymore. The way 
you make money is to make stuff with the tools, not to make the tools.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3956]
all i can do in rebol is selling the  programs i do using rebol... 
but what credibility i have imagine my clients how they work they 
give me specs i propose them to do it in rebol they say no because 
if you get any problem we the client will not be able to get easyly 
a substitute to you  to retake your work and get it enhanced ...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3957]
Since you haven't been participating as much, you don't know how 
far along we are, so you don't understand how incredibly dumb it 
would be to scrap the code base and start over. We are only working 
on one VM. If someone else wants to start another project, fine, 
but they should have a good case for allocating the resources, and 
not do anything to preclude others from helping them.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3958]
BrianH hum and no people asked for my help neither ... supposing 
i could bring some help which is not the case i think...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3959]
I have on many occasions asked for contributions and help, and many 
have answered. If you feel that you can't help, you will be missed 
but we will make do.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3960]
i know but my way to help is different but not uninterresting ... 
and franckly i'm maybe one  of the few more interrested in what can 
be done with rebol than what can be done to improve rebol ... what 
is the meaning of adding things if we already don't use what exists 
in rebol ?
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3961x2]
If I start up a project for R3 interoperability with Java would you 
help? Don't worry, I won't use a (L)GPL license so you won't be prevented 
from working on other projects with the code you write.
Note: Interoperability, not necessarily cloning (unless that is what 
is required). Improving the development process on the Java platform 
would be the goal.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3963]
if i can if i have access to the whole source code, but i will try 
...  most of the time i need to see the big picture to get ideas 
on how to proceed ... a mono C# clone intent have been tryed 4 years 
ago it was spirit then sudently the author disapeared and that's 
it ...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3964]
Because Java sucks. This is why Scala and Clojure exist too.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3965]
(i just discorverd the font size growth button in altme i'm happy 
)
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3966]
That was the aA button I mentioned :)
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3967x2]
scala clojured never heard about them  sorry
BrianH yes indeed thank you i didn't read that part .... with such 
tiny fonts i don"t read all sorry ...
BrianH
21-Jul-2010
[3969]
Scala is the second-most popular language on the Java platform, in 
terms of job postings. It is basically Java's version of F#, but 
better. Clojure is a somewhat Common-Lisp-like language for Java. 
Both of these languages exist because of how breathtakingly bad Java 
sucks for everything Java is used for.
shadwolf
21-Jul-2010
[3970x2]
(lisp :) ahahaha and :( say no to car cdr car and all the parenthésis 
that goes with them)
ok so i would run for a rebol on scala :)