World: r3wp

For experimental releases especially.

If nothing changed in the hostkit, then an updated hostkit release 
is mostly a matter of bundling updated r3 core libs.

So the isolation argument is moot.

On the contrary, there are bugs in CC which seem to only occur with 
binaries built from the hostkit. So you have a wider base of testing.

Updated R3 core libs which *may not work*. Once we are sure that 
the core works, we can adapt the hostkit to match. For that matter, 
we made changes that might break existing extensions (I think they 
won't).

If the RT binaries were built from the same sources, that would not 
be possible.

They are.

Then the scenario you describe is not possible.

Either the hostkit is already adapted for the RT built to work.

Or it is not, and RT builts from separate sources.

builds*

The R3 core libs might not work, because A108 core might not work.

Most of the host kit problems that end users find and Rt doesn't 
are compiler or platform related, not due to source differences.

Then your testing point is moot.

Just release pre-built binaries along with the hostkit, and let users 
test however they wish.

We are testing the core first. The host kit later. Who knows, later 
might be tomorrow.

Or in 5 months.

My point is, there's no difference. With a hostkit release where 
nothing changed, you still only test the core.

Nothing changed except everything that is REBOL-related, and the 
module system that extensions are built on.

For that matter, A108 is so experimental that security will likely 
be turned off.

Which is why we know that it won't be 5 months, because A109 will 
be focusing on security issues.

Time will tell.

I will remind you of that when you explain to hostkit developers 
that A109 will be a binary-only release for whatever reason is en 
vogue then.

You keep saying "binary-only". You keep leaving off the "at first" 
part. That part matters.

No, it's the timing of the "at first" we are discussing.

In the meanwhile, A108 will likely be a break-your-code release, 
so watch out.

Won't be able to test it much, without a hostkit.

You will be able to test the A108 changes quite easily without a 
host kit. Extensions can still be loaded externally, and the rest 
is core.

_I_ won't. People in general might well be able to do so.

Good, then you can enjoy the benefit of their testing when the host 
kit release comes out. Less hassle for you.

Fewer testers for you.

A host kit release has more code than a core release. Why would we 
delay a core release until the non-core host kit code is adapted? 
We don't have to wait to release everything at once, when we can 
get the core release out early to testers. This is especially important 
for releases that focus on core changes.

If the binary-only releases where built from the same codebase, the 
code _would_ already be adapted.

And this is the biggest core change in the last year. It needs extra 
testing.

The host kit uses the same code base, but it uses extra code that 
core doesn't. Code that we haven't adapted yet.

speaking for myself...  all of my concerns wrt A108 *are* the changes 
in the core wrt how they affect extensions.


The fact that R3 itself is better is cool, but doesn't really allow 
me to test anything if I can't actually compile the host-kit against 
it.


though I know how preparing working releases takes time, so I'm probably 
a bit more patient than Andreas.  ;-)


I will be starting work on my Custom Gob Renderering A107 R3 host-kit 
sometime this week.  

I still have to *complete* the rendering pipeline architecture from 
end to end (even if its currently very shallow), which is about 80% 
done.

most of what is left is the easy part (the actual OpenGL handling 
itself)

BrianH, that last statement is nonsensical.

Either the binary-only releases are built from the same codebase, 
or they are not.

Let me make it more plain.

I meant to say that I was starting work on the *release* itself (preping 
and cleanup folders of bogus files, and basically uprooting the current 
compilation setup into new clean folders, while doing a little bit 
of diffing on the released A107 to see if any oddities have crept 
in the code.

If the binary-only is a binary built from the hostkit sources with 
the only difference that the r3 libs are statically linked instead 
of dynamically, that is the same code base.

Not *all* of the codebase in a hostkit is used in a binary-only release. 
There is *more* code in a hostkit.

Like?

Graphics.

Optional in the hostkit.

But still needs to be compatible before a host kit release.

Nope. See the Linux hostkits.

(Besides, I got the impression from the R3 GUI team that they have 
A108 pre-releases with graphics enabled. Might have read a bit too 
much between the lines, though.)

You might be too pessimistic when you say that the host kit will 
come out much later. There is nothing to indicate this.

The header changes in A108 will be ignored by A107, and the old settings 
will be ignored by A108, so if you want to have transitional code 
you can use both. The only change that I know is not automatically 
adjusted for is the isolate: true header, so if you need that and 
want it to also be compatible with A108 then also include options: 
[isolate]. And you don't need to use type: 'extension anymore, type: 
'module will do (in either version). Don't use the word 'hidden in 
your modules though, at least not at the top level - hidden will 
be a new keyword in module code, like export.