World: r3wp

Well, I don't think REBOL suddenly has the speed of C

Certainly not for C-like code, agreed. But if you are writing REBOL-like 
code then you are mostly calling fairly complex functions that are 
written in very good C, functions like PARSE and APPEND. Most of 
the code you run in REBOL is actually implemented in C, including 
the interptreter itself. So in that case REBOL has the speed of the 
C that it is written in.

I just feel you're overdoing it a bit. If you were to follow that 
reasoning through, the conclusion would have to be that REBOL has 
negligable overhead over C. Indeed, that's what some people claim 
on the web because they heard it somewhere in the community, and 
that's how REBOL people become known to the outside world as lying 
or delusional

Among dynamic languages, REBOL is slow. Not the slowest, but slow. 
Not that this matters in practice, but that's a whole other set of 
myths

Perl can also have the same speed as C under similar circumstances. 
It all depends on how heavy the native functions that you are calling 
are. But unlike most dynamic languages, REBOL is optimized for hand-optimization 
and doesn't have a semantic model that even vaguely resembles that 
of C code, so you can't just transliterate code from another language 
to REBOL and expect to get the same performance. REBOL is *really* 
slow for the type of code that requires a compiler to be efficient, 
but it can be *really* fast at the kind of code that other languages 
have a lot of trouble dealing with at all because they have to manually 
implement a lot of stuff that REBOL has built-in in native code.

I understand your reasoning, but it all comes down to whether you 
want to be perceived by the outside world as delusional or not

It is not a myth that REBOL is fast. It can sometimes be misunderstood 
though, because people who are familiar with other languages will 
try to write code in the style of those other languages and expect 
it to be fast. REBOL code written in REBOL style for tasks that REBOL 
is suited for can be very fast.

Very fast doesn't mean anything. For the outside world it does, because 
they're comparing it to something

And for other tasks, we have extensions.

I think that the outside world would consider me delusional for choosing 
a language that isn't compiled, or (worst sin of all) doesn't have 
a C-like syntax. Most people think hand-optimization is insane in 
the modern world. And in some circumstances (and for many programmers) 
it is a bit crazy. But when you already can hand-optimize and understand 
the semantic model of the language you are using, and how it is different 
from other languages, then it's not so crazy. Differences matter. 
And I only use REBOL where it is appropriate, at least in comparison 
to the overhead of learning another tool.

Rather than focusing on the details and claiming REBOL is fast in 
details, I would typify REBOL as a slow language that allows you 
to write fast algorithms

Algorithms dominate speed over details in almost all programs

It goes the other way too: If you try to write REBOL-like code in 
most other languages then you will run into a wall. For most you 
will need to reimplement most of the natives before you can start, 
if it is possible to do REBOL-like code at all (often not with parsers). 
And when you do manage to get that code running it is often slower 
than REBOL code because of the optimization its natives have gone 
through.

Yes, Greenspun's tenth rule

There are some exceptions to this, languages that have comparable 
levels of built-in functionality, or more: Common Lisp, or Perl 6 
for instance.

Well, then we're doomed against Perl 6 :-)

PARSE rules are comparable to Perl 6 rules, both in speed and functionality. 
There are tricks you can do in either that you can't do in the other, 
or in some cases not easily. R2's PARSE outdid Perl 5's regexes, 
but R3 had to drastically update PARSE to catch up with Perl 6's 
rules.

I never heard Carl mentioning that as the objective :-)

I was the one who managed the parse proposals project - it was *my* 
objective.

There are tricks that you can do with dynamic rules that are provably 
impossible for static rules to do (patterns that static rules can't 
recognize). PARSE is a superset of the PEG model, while Perl 6 rules 
are a superset of recursive descent (LL), and there are patterns 
that LL can't handle that PEG can.

PARSE is dynamic PEG - there's nothing else like it (known to Wikipedia 
at least).

There's a lot in this world that is kept from Wikipedia...

Nothing publically released in even commercial form then.

There are a lot of tricks that you can do in REBOL's DO dialect as 
well that can't be replicated in a compiled language without using 
self-modifying code. And vice-versa as well. Tradeoffs. But once 
you choose interpretation then you can optimize the language semantics 
to make that really efficient. That is why half of what a compiler 
does is done by LOAD, and optimized REBOL code looks a lot like what 
the other half of a compiler does. That is why REBOL DO is more comparable 
to one of Scheme's macro systems than it is to Scheme itself.

Exactly: REBOL's tradeoff is that it's a slow language that allows 
you to write fast programs

R3's DO dialect can be slower than compiled code for certain code 
patterns, but faster for others, depending on the compiler and language 
you are comparing it to (many dynamic languages were slower for a 
lot of code until recently). But you can make things a lot faster 
if you stop thinking of REBOL as being a language, and start thinking 
of it as being a library of native functions and datatypes, with 
a variety of high-level scripting languges built in to script that 
library, and some built-in functions written in those scripting languages. 
Plus you can add your own libraries and scripting languages if you 
like. Looking at things that way is the first step to becoming good 
at hand-optimizing REBOL.

R3 had to drastically update PARSE to catch up with Perl 6's rules.
 - that is not an objective, that is a statement, as I see it

such (or worse) problems I have with almost everything stated above

and, btw, no update to PARSE was "drastic" in fact

That's true, "drastic" is a bit of an overstatement. Almost(?) everything 
you can do in R3's PARSE you could do in R2 with dynamic parse tricks, 
DO dialect tricks or a preprocessor. But for the average PARSE user 
who can't understand the advanced workarounds the new capabilities 
are just that: new. If you look at idiomatic R3 rules compared to 
their R2 equivalents then the changes at least *look* drastic. Certainly 
different enough that for most people PARSE is quite a bit more powerful.

And it was an objective, from way back when we did the first round 
of PARSE proposals. At the time I had been following the development 
of Perl 6, especially their rules enhancements. Some of the PARSE 
proposals were based on trying to catch up with or show up Perl 6, 
and others came from tricks that other parser generators like ANTLR 
could do (like IF). To be fair, it was an unstated objective, at 
least on the pages. Peta had different objectives of course, like 
better matching the PEG theoretical model, and those were also good.

I'm sure that you had other objectives as well when you got involved 
in the most recent parse project 6 or 7 months after it started. 
Were you involved in the first round of parse proposals about 6 years 
ago? I remember Gabriele making a page for them after they had been 
discussed for a while, but not whether the initial discussions were 
here or on the mailing list.

Your recent work on the project has been much appreciated.

To be concrete, the resons, why I objected to "drastic" were:

1) R2 parse rules work in R3

2) R3 parse rules either work in R2, or can be translated easily 
to R2 (using e.g. the

http://www.rebol.org/view-script.r?script=parseen.r

functions)


Thus, everybody - don't be afraid of any "drastic" changes, nothing 
you learn or prepare in R2 will be lost, in fact.

When I look at the parse project, I see these changes as very useful:


1) the FAIL keyword - has been used as an idiom and proposed before 
the parse project started

2) the NOT keyword - has been used as an idiom and proposed before 
the parse project started
3) the AND keyword - a new and useful addition

4) the QUOTE keyword - used as an idiom and proposed before the parse 
project started

5) the REJECT keyword - a new and useful addition allowing to stop 
a parse cycle with a failure

6) the IF keyword - used as an idiom and proposed before the parse 
project started


As far as other improvements are concerned, I do not find them useful, 
and do not plan to use them, in fact. (YMMV)

When I look at the REJECT keyword - the FAIL idiom was used frequently 
before to obtain exactly the REJECT effect

As far as the speed statements go, I perceive them too inconcrete, 
and, therefore, misleading.

My 2 cents. 

It appears to me that the new RETURN command is underated currently.
It can compete in many places with idioms involving FIND + COPY.

This result looks quite unbelievable to me:

>> time-block [quote (x:)] 0,05
== 1.983642578125e-7

>> time-block [first [(x:)]] 0,05
== 2.46047973632813e-7

, how is that possible?

(the only reason, that looks probable to me is, that FIRST calls 
PICK...

You're right, FIRST and LAST call PICK
I discovered it while writing  my first scheme in R3.

That was done to make datatypes and schemes easier to implement and 
more consistent, and because we dropped reflection with ordinals.

I agree Steeve, and use PARSE RETURN a lot in adhoc code. I use all 
of the new addidions quite a bit, except for REJECT, which I had 
forgotten existed (don't remember the proposal for it).

addidions -> additions

There was one wiki/doc/blog/curecode page, describing differences 
between various possibilities of copying or not stuff during e.g. 
object construction. Could someone help me to find it? I would like 
to re-read it ...

It's on rebol.net, so down, but the bookmark I have was

http://www.rebol.net/w/index.php?title=Copy_Semantics&redirect=no

rebol.net is up again, at the moment. In case it is done when you 
try to follow the "copy semantics" link, Yahoo has a copy cached.

down*

Have we had REBOL 3 for 64-bit OS yet?