World: r3wp

Performances of rebol in general cases are the real subject here, 
I guess

Steeve, btw, R3:

>> form .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002
== "2.0e-47"

That's good

The point is the lack of user types in rebol and also the lack of 
performances (GIT compilation needed)

I maybe understand the reason to have things like #[none], #[true] 
and #[false] to specify those values, if someone choose to redefine 
none, true and false. I say "maybe", because I would be ok to let 
people to on their own, if they did such thing. But why have all 
the other #[] constructs? Is this making things simple or unnecessarily 
complex?

*to let people on their own*

Or did I mean "to let people be on their own"? :) Probably.

When I see tickets like #941, I think "gees, so much energy wasted 
on such rubbish".

Maybe I don't see the light, and then I'm sorry.

*geeze*
(It's late here.) ;)

true: not (false: true)

btw... why we need the parens to get the expected result?

>> mold/all true: not (false: true)
== "#[true]"

>> mold/all (true: not (false: true))
== "#[false]"

the above is in R3... in R2 it seems to be as I would expect:

>> mold/all true: not (false: true)
== "#[false]"

I maybe understand the reason to have things like #[none], #[true] 
and #[false] to specify those values, if someone choose to redefine 
none, true and false.

 - as far as I am concerned, you are missing the point, Geomol. My 
 thoughts:


1) there is a Data exchange dialect in REBOL, which is the main REBOL 
dialect (considering the fact, other REBOL dialects are derived from 
it).


A sidenote: the "Data exchange dialect" name may not be ideal. (this 
name is used in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REBOLarticle). 
Maybe, following the same "naming procedure" as for other dialects 
we could name it the "Load dialect"?


2) In the Data exchange dialect (or Load dialect, whichever you prefer), 
the

    none


expression is a word, and you do not have any means how to express 
the #[none] value, except for this specially escaped format, the 
same holds for #[true], #[false], #[unset!], etc.

Considering the fact, that any REBOL code is loaded first (in the 
computer, but your brain should follow a similar procedure when reading 
it), i.e. handled as the "Data exchange dialect"/"Load dialect" (pick 
the one you prefer) before being (eventually, but not necessarily) 
submitted to any other interpreting function (like DO, etc.), the 
specially escaped format is useful, since it increases the expressivity 
of the "Data exchange dialect"/"Load dialect" (pick your preferred 
one).

Oldes, regarding your example. It looks, that you messed up something.

I do not need any parens to write:

>> true: #[true] false: #[false] mold/all true: not false: true
== "#[false]"

BTW, at the Davis RebCon, Gregg asked which REBOL dialect is the 
one used most frequently, and he suggested the function specification 
dialect, IIRC. But, as you may have noticed, my favourite is the 
"Data exchange dialect"/the "Load dialect" (still did not pick the 
name you prefer?)

I think that Ladislav's point of view can be simply exemplified:

>> type? first [none]

== word!

>> type? first [#[none]
]
== none!

and perhaps made clearer with an example using #[unset!]:

>> type? unset!       
== datatype!
>> type? first [unset!
]
== word!
>> type? first [#[unset!]]      
== unset!

Any, if we define a DISPLAY-RESULT function as follows (in R3):


    display-result: func [value [any-type!]] [print ["==" mold/all :value 
    newline]]

, we obtain:

>> display-result unset!
== #[datatype! unset!]

>> display-result quote unset!
== unset!

>> display-result quote #[unset!]
== #[unset!]

, which is (IMO) less confusing than

>> unset!
== unset!

>> quote unset!
== unset!

>> quote #[unset!]
>>

The data exchange dialect is a good point to have constructs. Then 
my logic goes:


REBOL values can be divided in two groups, 1. the ones with a non-ambigious 
lexical representation and 2. the ones without such lexical representation. 
Datatypes of values in the second group include:


unset! none! logic! bitset! image! map! datatype! typeset! native! 
action! routine! op! function! object! library! error! port! event!

and maybe a few more depending on what version of REBOL. The rest 
is in the first group.


It would make sense to have constructs for the values in the 2nd 
group. Then I look at some examples of constructs:

#[string! "abc"] #[email! "[abc-:-d]"]


Those are not necessary. If it's because all values can be represented 
as constructs, then why doesn't this work?

>> #[integer! 1]
** Syntax Error: Invalid construct -- #[


And how would values of type native!, action!, op!, etc. be represented 
as constructs?

I'm not convinced.

Example of necessity for string! and other series! types:
>> X: #[string! {abc} 2]
== "bc"
>> head X
== "abc"

Ah, now I got it. Thanks!


Is it complete, so natives, operators and functions can be made as 
constructs too?

REBOL values can be divided in two groups, 1. the ones with a non-ambigious 
lexical representation and 2. the ones without such lexical representation.

 - Well, this is rather confusing for me, since e.g. #[none] is (for 
 me) a "non-ambiguous lexical representation" of the value. But, your 
 classification would be OK with me, if we just added a note like 
 ("when the specially escaped representations are disregarded").

The Data exchange dialect (or the Load dialect) is incoplete in the 
following sense:


- natives etc. do have specially escaped representations (MOLD/ALL 
creates them), but such representations are not loadable

- MOLD/ALL creates loadable representations of REBOL objects and 
functions, but they are not guaranteed to preserve the properties 
of the orignal values

The "incomplete" above means "incomplete when compared with the DO 
dialect".

natives etc. do have specially escaped representations (MOLD/ALL 
creates them)

>> native? :until
== true
>> mold/all [until [true]]
== "[until [true]]"

How do I see the escaped representation?

>> mold/all :until             
== "native"

Hm, how is this useful?

Why not do this instead of having constructs?

>> make logic! 0      
== false
>> make logic! 1
== true
>> make none! 0 
== none

... etc.

Sorry I answer myself, but it's probably because it gives a different 
kind of value when loaded:

>> load {make logic! 0}
== [make logic! 0
]
>> load {#[false]}     
== false

How do I see the escaped representation?
 - interesting, you seem quite seriously confused

the [until [true]] block contains only words

>> mold/all :until
== {#[native! [[
    "Evaluates a block until it is TRUE. "
    block [block!]
]]]}

It is from R3, but, as said above, it is not loadable

Why not do this instead of having constructs?

>> make logic! 0      
== false

, because it is confusing. I prefer this:

>> display-result make logic! 0
== #[false]

(see the DISPLAY-RESULT function above)

I guess, much of my confusion here comes from the fact, that I never 
had the need for constructs.


If we follow the thought, that the none value should be shown as 
#[none] in the console, when it's a result, then the following should 
be shown as well:

>> next "abc"
== #[string! "abc" 2]


I think, most people wouldn't want that. It's not very readable. 
I still ask myself, if all those constructs are really necessary 
taking the amount of work and time used into account.

I see them as necessary, otherwise you would not be able to serialize 
(or specially escape) any rebol code or data properly using a fixed 
method. This is very important for dialects.

Henrik, can you give a simple example, where the serialized format 
is needed?

every time I save REBOL data to disk? I use this hundreds of times 
every day.

What's wrong with using a simple SAVE?

you will lose every datatype that will be seen as words.

Not, if you LOAD the data back into a context, where those words 
have meaning.

no, some types may be *confused* as words. that's different.

Basic example:

>> save %file.txt none
>> load %file.txt
== none ; is it none?
>> type? load %file.txt
== word! ; nope
>> save/all %file.txt none
>> type? load %file.txt   
== none! ; yes, only with proper serialization

It's kinda interesting, how complexity sneak into a language like 
REBOL. I have never used constructs. I save REBOL data and code to 
disk all the time. I even created a file system/database, that is 
all about saving and loading data and code. I get along using a combination 
of simple REBOL functions like SAVE, LOAD, REDUCE and DO.

I understand, it can be argued, it's more simple to just use
	save/all ....
	load ...

than something like
	save ...
	do load ... or maybe ... reduce load ...


but trying to make this simple result in a much more complex language. 
(as I see it)

I'm not sure that's a complexity. It's a basic need, when transfering 
REBOL data somewhere else, using strings or binaries. There is simply 
a loss of information, if the data is transferred in an unserialized 
fashion.

As code is also data in REBOL, and because natives can't be loaded 
and there are bugs like in making function constructs, then I see 
this as half-hearted. It kinda work, but not really.

You can't avoid serialization. What does this block contain?

>> my-block
== [none none]


You simply don't know by looking at it and you can't use this information 
other than in the current context. If you need to transfer the data 
elsewhere, you must serialize it.