World: r3wp

Nah, better start over and make a new language, that is simple in 
the first place.

That does not make sense in this case, when what you need is just 
a function like:

safe-object: func [blk [block!]] [make object! copy/deep blk]

and you are done

So, this is not about the language, this is just about a different 
function to use.

It is obvious, that using the SAFE-OBJECT function you are safe, 
plain and simple.

But, of course, it looks easier (at the first sight) to push somebody 
to define a new language for you. I can guarantee you, that no matter 
how hard you push, there will always be something you find "complicated".

Geomol... what is your definition of simple? Python?

REBOL's model is very simple, if you understand it. :-)

Gabriele, I guess, you're joking, but to answer your question: it 
would be simple, if the above function returning "bug!" would instead 
return "ok" like this function:

g: does [
	get in make object! [
		a: "ok"
		a: "bug!"
		get in make object! [
			a: "ok"
		] 'a
		a: "ok"
	] 'a
]

>> g
== "ok"

It would be simple because it fits your model better? Or because 
the model to describe that behavior would be simpler?


I'm asking because the latter is certainly false, especially if you 
want to preserve things like dialecting.

In REBOL, literal blocks are just literal blocks. If you modify them... 
they are modified. Binding a block modifies the words inside the 
block, ie. it modifies the block. It can't get any simpler than this.


Now, you may argue that MAKE OBJECT! should bind/copy the block instead; 
the reason it does not is purely performance (as 99.99% of the time 
the copy is not necessary). In that 0.01% of cases where you need 
it... you just write MAKE OBJECT! COPY/DEEP [...] instead.

Our understanding of "simple" is different, or I would go as far 
as saying, your understanding of "simple" is twisted.


It would be simple because it fits your model better? Or because 
the model to describe that behavior would be simpler?
I'm asking 
because the latter is certainly false, especially if you want to 
preserve things like dialecting.


I would say, the model giving my suggested behaviour is simpler. 
If you disagree, then look at the code again. 'a' is set to "ok" 
again, after the recursive call. A model giving some other result 
is not simple. If you think, it is, then describe that model in a 
simple way! A simple model should also be simple to describe, right?

Geomol, the behaviour of self modifying code is never simple to understand, 
that is where Gabriele and I can agree with you.


In contrast to that, what both Gabriele and I call simple is the 
suggestion to use the SAFE-OBJECT [...] (or MAKE OBJECT! COPY/DEEP 
[...]) non-modifying expression, which, indeed, exhibits the simple 
behaviour.

On the other hand, the behaviour of self-modifying code is not as 
terribly complicated as you are trying to suggest, since:


* Taking into account the modifying properties of the MAKE OBJECT! 
[...] expression I wanted to write a relatively simple example to 
show what bug you may run into when ignoring the modifications.

* I succeeded immediately without actually running into such a case 
in practice, i.e. I did not have to hit my head to the wall first 
to run into this.

* It sufficed to think of a case when the modification would twist 
the block behaviour relatively to what you might find simple.

* Since I did it without actually running into it, I am fully entitled 
to saying, that the behaviour is actually transparent to me.

(and, I guess, the same applies to Gabriele as well)

And, one more note to the ability to modify the code:


* since the REBOL's ability to modify the code blocks (and, create 
self-modifying code this way) lies at the heart of REBOL's reflexivity, 
which allows to define and process unlimited amount of REBOL dialects, 
I am strictly *for* keeping this feature in REBOL.

As demonstrated above, it is easy (simple) to avoid *undesired* code 
modifications anyway.

BTW, did you already succeed to get your head around the difference 
between a function and a closure?

;-)

Yeah, I have a reasonable understanding of what a function and a 
closure is, and if I remember correctly, R2 functions are neither 
... or are a combination.


Back to the self-modifying code when making objects. Look at this:

>> b: [print 'ok a: 1]
== [print 'ok a: 1]
>> o: make object! b
ok
>> ? b
B is a block of value: [print 'ok a: 1]


Since making the object doesn't change the block, do you still think, 
the above bug isn't a bug in REBOL?

* since the REBOL's ability to modify the code blocks (and, create 
self-modifying code this way) lies at the heart of REBOL's reflexivity, 
which allows to define and process unlimited amount of REBOL dialects, 
I am strictly *for* keeping this feature in REBOL.


Gettin' rid of this bug doesn't mean, we should or would sacrifice 
self-modifying code, so I don't understand, why you bring this argument 
up.

Since making the object doesn't change the block

 - it does, I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find out how

Gettin' rid of this bug doesn't mean, we should or would sacrifice 
self-modifying code

 - actually, you get rid of the bug by not writing a self-modifying 
 code. Unless you forbid me to write a self-modifying code, I can 
 always recreate the bug.

(one way or the other)

I have a reasonable understanding of what a function and a closure 
is, and if I remember correctly, R2 functions are neither ... or 
are a combination

 - this looks quite superficial. Seems to me you did not read the 
 suggested section of the article and have actually no idea.

(the general definition does not apply to REBOL closures, I am not 
sure I picked a correct name, that may be my mistake)

:) ok

Since making the object doesn't change the block" - it does, I leave 
it as an exercise for the reader to find out how"

>> b: [print 'ok a: 1]
== [print 'ok a: 1]
>> b2: copy b
== [print 'ok a: 1]
>> make object! b
ok
>> b = b2
== true
>> b == b2
== true


b and b2 are clearly not the same, so I won't test that. Now, before 
you suggest a fourth type of equal test, maybe you should reconsider 
your statement, that this is a simple part of the language? And that 
my claim of this being a bug has something to it.


(I know, the difference lies in the binding, so you don't have to 
make any 'smart-ass' points about that, just take a step back and 
look at all this again. That's all I'm asking.)

I don't understand. Are you trying to prove (incorrectly) that the 
MAKE OBJECT! [...] expression does not mutate the block?

Regarding your "this being a bug" - how that can be a bug of the 
language is beyond my understanding, when I know that it was intended.

Moreover, as already mentioned at least three times: it is easy to 
avoid any problems. It suffices to use a non-modifying SAFE-OBJECT 
function.

If you still try to pretend that there is no difference between the 
SAFE-OBJECT [...] expression and the MAKE OBJECT! [...] expression, 
then you are just presenting your stubbornness, rather than the will 
to find out how the things work.

Anyway, for the readers that are curious, here is the explanation:

a: [print 'ok a: 1]
get third a ; == [print 'ok a: 1]
b: copy a
get third b ; == [print 'ok a: 1]
make object! b
get third b ; == 1

While, we still get:

a: [print 'ok a: 1]
get third a ; == [print 'ok a: 1]
b: copy a
get third a ; == [print 'ok a: 1]

Sorry, just a paste problem, AltMe is not exactly comfortable as 
far as cut and paste goes.

what does 'third mean on a block?

Posting once again, to not confuse anybody:

a: [print 'ok a: 1]
get third a ; == [print 'ok a: 1]
b: copy a
get third b ; == [print 'ok a: 1]
make object! b
get third b ; == 1
get third a ; == [print 'ok a: 1]

ah, ok... :)

To not bee too critical, here is a session from the R3 console using 
Geomol's code, which reveals an iconsistency in the R3 == function:

>> b: [print 'ok a: 1]
== [print 'ok a: 1]

>> b2: copy b
== [print 'ok a: 1]

>> make object! b
ok
== make object! [
    a: 1
]

>> b = b2
== true

>> b == b2
== true

>> (third b) == (third b2)
== false

Funnily enough, == is not inconsistent in R2, but that is not very 
useful either

Regarding your 

this being a bug" - how that can be a bug of the language is beyond 
my understanding, when I know that it was intended."

*sigh* :)

How do you know, it was intended? You may know, because you've discussed 
it with Carl. How would other than you know?


When I say "bug", I might mean "design flaw". Have you considered 
that? If it was intended and can be considered a design flaw, why 
not just call it a bug then?


Never mind. As I expect, you won't eat your words about this being 
simple, I don't expect a reasonable answer anyway. :)

Note to self: when discussions evolve like this, don't waste your 
time, John.

How would other than you know?
 - exactly as I did, form the public expressions

(not private, as you are suggesting)

And regarding the "time waste", some readers discovered something 
new, so it was not a time waste for them

Regarding the "How would other than you know?" - see e.g. this source:

http://www.rebol.com/r3/docs/functions/make.html

Regarding the "design flaw" - as I said, the MAKE OBJECT! [...] expression 
modifies the block, but it is easy to define the SAFE-OBJECT fucntion 
which does not modify the block. Thus, it is not a design flaw at 
all. It might be considered a design flaw only if we weren't able 
to define such a function.

(but this kind of simplicity does not tell you anything as it looks)

And, while you discovered something new as well (see your posts above 
admitting that), I certainly did not, so, I am the one here answering 
some "time wasting" questions of yours.

And regarding the 

time waste", some readers discovered something new, so it was not 
a time waste for them"
That's right, I did not know that MAKE OBJECT modifies the block.

The

http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Bindology


article discusses this as well (together with other subjects I found 
interesting), but, I have to admit, that it is probably not a reading 
for a "faint of heart"

I confused about COPY on R3. On R2 COPY doesn't work on object! type. 
It does on R3.