World: r3wp

Doc, that's some amazing progress.

Thanks James.

Sorry if this is off topic, but maybe this is relevant to Red/System:

http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2010365

I always liked explicit lengths more than the NULL terminator, but 
Red/System has to interface with C code, so the choice has been made 
there

Interesting read though.

It's a choice we can reconsider once Red/System will be rewritten 
in Red. But we'll probably end up choosing the same option, because 
of the overheads of deviating from the format C libs and OS API expect. 
Anyway, it should be an interesting debate. :-)

Probably the best you could do would be to support both types

Sure, but the biggest issue is having to deal with a length header 
when passing to (and returning from) an external function.

Tamas sent me a link today about a nice little SSL/TLS library (http://polarssl.org). 
The bad thing is that it's GPL, but the license extends to FOSS License 
Exception: http://polarssl.org/license_exception


As I understand it, it would be possible to use it for Red but every 
future Red binary publicly distributed would have to come with also 
the PolarSSL source code and a copy of the GPL library. I think that 
burden would be too high for future Red corporate users. What do 
you think?

Isn't it possible to use similar code from PuTTY? As I see it, PuTTY 
has better licence.

License: sure MIT is better, but does PuTTY supports SSL? I thought 
it was only doing SSH.

Hm, yeah, I'm not sure. I guess, I had zlib in my mind, which PuTTY 
also do a reimplementation of. I'm not too much into SSH and SSL. 
PuTTY also have code for SFTP, if that helps in any way to make a 
SSL implementation.

Some code for hashing and encrypting could be borrowed from PuTTY. 
Anyway, those algorithms are well documented and some of them even 
have public domain implementations (like MD5).

The RFC for TLS (Transport Layer Security) is 100 pages:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5246


Is it necessary to implement TLS these days, or is its predecessor 
(SSL) enough?

Too bad, it's such a load to implement some security. :/

Would it make more sense to implement such protocols in REBOL, which 
may be easily portable to Red? (Instead of doing a C implementation.)

I think it would be doable to implement SSL/SSH in REBOL, but it's 
a big task (at least for SSL).

What would be cool would be to implement all the low-level encryption 
routines in Red/System.

Have you looked at the way, REBOL do it? The REBOL/SDK at least have 
some of that security.

REBOL provides all the low-level encryption routines required, but 
they are coded in C.  REBOL SSL implementation is also done in C 
(by Holger IIRC).

ok

The REBOL SSL port might also be using some REBOL code for higher 
level protocol support, but it's not accessible, so we can't check 
that.

IIRC, Cyphre once said, that idea for R3 was to add some port or 
other low level encryption functionality, and that https etc would 
be done in REBOL level, using thow low-level facilities ...

Geomol, the recent exploits of SSL don't affect TLS (at least 1.1 
iirc). So yes, we need to implement TLS, but maybe not SSL.

Has the PuTTY code been updated to patch the latest exploits?

Some serious bugs seem to have been fixed in the latest release: 
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/changes.html

Including PolarSSL in Red would not only require every Red program 
to provide the library source code, it would require every Red program 
to be open source. That's unacceptable for business purposes

As far as I know, OpenSSL is the only TLS implementation under BSD, 
but it's the old BSD licence with advertising clause. This makes 
it incompatible with GPL software such as libraries one may want 
to use with Red, if they don't have an explicit exception for OpenSSL

Much GPL software that is relevant has that exception, so it's a 
limited problem

From a technical standpoint, Jaromil has advised me that GNU TLS 
is of higher quality. It is LGPL, so it's acceptable as long as you 
agree to provide the source code to GNU TLS only, as with many other 
libraries

It would be great to eventually implement many libraries in Red, 
but this is a gargantuan task, and security code is very specialised 
and critical

GnuTLS is indeed of _much_ higher quality than OpenSSL. It is not 
as widespread, though.

Kaj: you're right, I misunderstood the extend of article 2.4 in License 
Exception. We can't use it.

Apparently, PuTTY has its own BSD SSL implementation, so that's interesting. 
But it's not structured as a library, but entirely integrated in 
the other protocols, seems somewhat limited and lacking in portability. 
The only way to use it would be to rip out the source code and make 
a portable library out of it, or reimplement it in Red

Kaj, can you see, if it's a SSL implementation or just SSH? Or is 
SSL there by automatic, when making SSH implementations?

There is hardly any talk of SSL, but of the separate authentication 
methods that it comprises. Indeed, SSH implies what is called SSL, 
so it's in there in some form

Thanks!

It could be completely entangled with the SSH protocol, but since 
they also do SFTP, one can hope it is somewhat abstracted internally

SFTP is basically nothing more than a set of specific commands sent 
over SSH.

That alone won't require much abstraction, I fear.

Ah, right, so it could still be entangled. I was thinking of FTPS

AFAIK, SSL and SSH are different communication protocols that rely 
on common hashing and encryption algorithms on the low-level layer.

Yes, it doesn't seem to be called SSL within SSH, but there is talk 
of TLS

Didn't PuTTY also do telnet/ssl?

Hmm, seems it doesn't.

Well, then there's probably hardly anything SSL/TLS-specific in there, 
except for some common crypto primitives as Doc mentioned.

There is a "telnet.c" in the PuTTY sources.

I have just bricked my Sheevaplug by doing a simple "apt-get upgrade"...:-(

No way to get access to it anymore even using the USB direct connection.

So I need to find a suitable ARM emulator now to be able to finish 
the ARM port...