World: r3wp

(Please, give me the opportunity to finish myt talk. I am quite slow 
at english writing !)

np :)

You are a programmer but you should be an inspirator and entrepreneur. 
Like a programmer you first released the alpha version before selling 
the idea ! :-) You came out from your BatCave after 2 years of silence 
telling us "look here what I have created". This is good as it proves 
you deliver other than promising. 


Somewhere, in the road to version 1.0 you will need help. It belongs 
to you teling us when you will have clear in your mind the whole 
project. Then, please SHARE THE VISION and ask for cooperation and 
involvement of other programmers.


You are not alone. There is lot of skilled people here. They will 
be happy to give their input to you.

This will avoid being World as a one man project and will put the 
basis for collaboration.

When you will be ready for this I ask you to make few thing:

1) Create a white paper with your vision to let us know what is in 
your mind
2) Set the goals of the project.
3) Open the source but maintain the leadership of the project.
4) Ask for cooperation
5) Build the comminication/documentation infrastructure .

I have read you are somehow confused about how to make revenues from 
your project. First of all lets alltogether finish it.

As you may know I am the creator of the REBOL2 DocBase section.

I have asked for long time the upgrade of the software to a later 
version which supports multiple languages.

Now 3 years have passed since then and no upgrade took place.

I am still with the same idea: I believe that documentation and communication 
is everything. If someone has the willingnes to setup a linux system 
with the proper wiki software I am ready to DONATE MONEY for hosting.

It will be the basis for World Documentation. You are a programmer 
and you know how much important is this aspect. I am sure we will 
find someone which could create the official World Web Site.

I am ready to read your opinions. Then will come my views about making 
money with your product.

Somewhere, in the road to version 1.0 you will need help. It belongs 
to you teling us when you will have clear in your mind the whole 
project. Then, please SHARE THE VISION and ask for cooperation and 
involvement of other programmers.


It's pretty clear in my mind, what version 1 is about. When I started, 
I wrote down the natives, which are really necessary to create a 
REBOL like language on a virtual machine. All the other functions 
should be able to be produced from this set of natives. I listed 
about 100. World currently has 83 natives implemented. Maybe some 
of them will get some more refinements before version 1, but you 
could say, the natives are 80% done.


You may think of this project as the Wildman project (see that group), 
not on native hardware, but on a virtual machine.

And I listed close to 50 datatypes. World currently operate with 
41 datatypes.

As things are clear to you I suggest to spend a couple of days creating 
the White Paper, The structure of the programming language and the 
ROADMAP. You may think that you will loose 2 days but I am sure you 
will gain lot more.

Personally I have a great private project in mind and a skilled developer 
for it.

The project is blocked because he want to make money now and someone 
who finances the project.

I told him that First of all we must show a concept application. 
This will sell the application itself and we start fundraising.

Until something usable won't be ready I will not be able to sell 
the idea. He refuses this view and we are blocked.


As you are writing a programming language you are in a worst scenarion 
than us.

You need to have a commercial class programming language ready for 
the mass to sell it and this is not the case.

Commercial Class mean: IDE, Solution for interfacing SQL Databases, 
Solutions for communicating, Solutions for interfacing to other projects.

This is too much for one man to accomplish. You need to live, you 
need money and World is your Hobby project (Isn't it ?)


Open sourcing and delegating is the solution for creating a mature 
project: you seth the path, the specifications, the rules, the others 
will help.


I won't give a Penny and Time to REBOL Tech. because its source is 
closed and this model is wasting my precious life waiting for Carl 
to resurrect.

Open Sourcing solves this problem. Don't you think that if REBOL 
was open sourced many developers would have inproved it in Carls 
absence ? Do you think that someone, like an university will donate 
money to a private held project ? I don't think so.


When we (you) will have a mature project and you will be able to 
show to the world the advantages of your solutions money will come.

Think of SQL lite. There is a consortium behind it. Other open source 
solutions have the same consortiums behind them.


There are many ways to raise money: You can produce vertical solutions 
for your baby.You can give consulency to companies and other institutions, 
you can create products with World. These are few that comes into 
my mind.

I repeat: I am ready to cooperate once you will chose an open source 
 licence. I am ready to give money and TIME. Carl didn't seem to 
apreciate. Hope you will.

You list of 5 things:


1) Not sure, I wanna do that. It takes time away from me finishing 
version 1.
2) I have set the goals for ver. 1.
3) No (see Q&A)

4) "Ask for cooperation" - World would need schemes for the different 
protocols. I will welcome others work in that area. Me (and most 
likely others too) would like to see World on more platforms than 
the current 3. Host kit is open source. I will welcome ports to other 
platforms. (That's what I can think of for now, but I'll keep it 
in mind.)

5) It's faster for me to write the documentation than building a 
comm/doc infrastructure. I'll write the World 'bible'. Work has started, 
and I'll use more time on it, when version 1 is a bit closer.

DONATE MONEY
You will be able to soon, if all goes well.

Point 3 is important for me and many others. If the project is open 
sourced I will be ready to donate. No waste of money donating to 
a private held company.

World is your Hobby project (Isn't it ?)
No, this is a business project for me.

What exactly is your business plan?

Geomol: do you plan to make money selling the language ?

Don't you think that if REBOL was open sourced many developers would 
have inproved it in Carls absence?

Yes, myself included. I'm not absent. I will not let the World project 
ends (or leave at the state) as the R2 or R3 project. Then I would 
better open source it.

There are many ways to raise money:
Yes, I know, and I plan to do something about it. :)

Personal I discourage you from closing the part/all of the source. 

Having learnt from REBOL Tech., the language itself will not sell 
and closing the source closes the opportunity of cooperation.

An open source give you a boost into the develpment and believe me: 
you stongly need cooperation.
However I am not GOD and I cannot force you into making anything.

I could only share my opinions and give you time to thing on them.

Could GOD BLESS YOU !

do you plan to make money selling the language?

No, that's not in my plan, but who knows, maybe someone wanna pay 
me to open source it or use it in certain projects. I plan to keep 
the language free (no payment to use it), but make money on areas 
connected to the language.

Exactly how does your plan differ from R3 business plan?

:)


About open source, read my answer in the Q&A. It has to make business 
sense to open source. It doesn't atm.

Exactly how does your plan differ from R3 business plan?

As I don't know the full R3 plan, I don't know the answer to that 
question.

to the known aspects of the R3 business plan :)

When I started "Countdown: 10" 2 weeks ago, the C sources were close 
to 23'000 lines. Atm. World is 24'372 lines and growing. The project 
is moving forward fast.

Geomol: don't make the mistakes of CARL. 

You strongly need developers and adoption from the open source community. 
We are now in the right momentum. Please belive me: you have more 
adavantages than disvantages and you won't loose the contro of your 
baby.

don't make the mistakes of CARL.
Trust me, I won't.

Lets the time talk for this. I prey for you.

Graham, as many companies, I don't open up my business plan to everyone. 
To business partners maybe, but not everyone.

I'm not religious. :) Stronly religious people frightens me to some 
degree.

I am not religius to my I will light a Candle in any case a GOD exists 
and could help you :-)

too

:) Thanks!

Well, good luck but as in the tech news .. HP paid $1.2bn for WebOS 
and are now open sourcing it

I just thought of another way to help. Make a list of REBOL functions 
missing. There are many missing from %rebol.w

And there already is a wiki started with differences from REBOL at:
https://github.com/Geomol/World/wiki/Differences-from-REBOL

I don't have time to write it. But everybody can write in that wiki.

Now, go try World out. And remember to have fun!

You're welcome to tell HP or anybody else about World.

I second Giuseppe.

I will not invest any time or money in a new closed source project.
Not anymore.

Geomol, do you really think you can follow the same model than Carl 
with better results ?

You should aknowledge the fact than nobody win money just because 
they designed or a created a new programming language.
I was possible back in 90's but not anymore.

I am sure I won't convice you about open sourcing it showing only 
advantages but I am curious: which are the disvantages you see in 
open sourcing the Language ?

I have my hands full now, and I make really good progress. When we're 
around version 1 (or if I don't make more progress), it would make 
much more sense to think about open source. And as I've said, it 
may also make really good sense to open source parts along the way. 
I have considered library.c and library.h, which holds the C code 
for library! and routine!. That almost makes sense now. When I've 
implemented error! correctly (working on it), it really makes sense. 
You have only been able to run World for 5 days. Patience! :)

Disadvantages: me loosing focus and loosing time, when having to 
answer all kinds of questions and approve new developments. The horror 
of World being fragmented to 100 versions, where none of them are 
compatible. You wouldn't like that! I make sure, that doesn't happen.


You need surplus of time and resources to open source things like 
this, if you wanna be sure, it doesn't run off rails. Look at how 
many ways, you can do any single thing in Linux. It's way too fragmented 
in most areas.

Of course, there are now six in-development ways to write a program 
in a REBOL like language, half of which are closed source

So haft are open. Do you have a general view, how things are going 
with the different languages?

Yes, efforts are quite fragmented over all these projects. Syllable 
is even still using a seventh language because I can't keep up

It probably doesn't make sense to join forces of all these languages, 
because they're so different in goal/implementation/design.

And it may make sense to share code in some areas.