World: r4wp

I think that my trade-off for Red is "better", but we can discuss 
it if I have missed something.

How the outer REPEAT remembers the value i?
red>> repeat i 3 [print i repeat i 2 [print [tab i]]]
1
        1
        2
2
        1
        2
3
        1
        2

And the last value is 2, not 3.
red>> i
== 2

It is a bit confusing.

Even the outer REPEAT doesn't return its last value in this case:
red>> i: repeat i 3 [print i repeat i 2 [print [tab i]] i]
red>> i
== 2

But normally it does:
red>> i: repeat a 5 [4]
== 4

I don't want iterator word available outside of loop, this is really 
bad idea.

I *feel* same way, I usually use i, j, k, t, s as /local words to 
functions, and I don't worry to mess them with iterator words inside 
function. But we should explain why or how it is a bad idea to Doc 
(if it really is)

What does this do (I don't have access to Red here):

repeat i i: 3 [print i]

red>> repeat i i: 3 [print i]
1
2
3
red>> i
== 3

hmm... yes, I guess that makes sense.

but importantly, not necessariy for the same reason as in REBOL.

I guess we need consistency. Do any other loop functions in Red behave 
this way?

All behave the same way.

Bad idea

 is not an argument. You should look at it with a fresh view, if we 
 got used to it after several years, it doesn't mean that it was a 
 good design choice in the first place.

How the outer REPEAT remembers the value i?
 Iterator word value is stored on stack, recursively.

Doc: What do you think about the examples above? About return value.

Anyway, you shouldn't use the same word for nested loops, that is 
just confusing and will lead to errors.

But if there is no extra binding, how does this work as expected?
red>> repeat i 3 [print i repeat i 2 [print [tab i]]]

Return value: it looks logical to me, REPEAT returns the last value 
from body block. In your example, the last value in the last iteration 
is 2 (because `i` is set to 2 by the inner REPEAT). Same rule as 
for your second code example.

how does this work as expected?

 I just answered that above: "Iterator word value is stored on stack, 
 recursively."

I see. What about FOREACH, it looks it behaves different:
red>> foreach i [1 2 3] [ ]
red>> i
== none

That looks like a bug to me.

You should all think about the cost of a), such cost is paid in geometrical 
proportion in case of nested loops. Loops are at the heart of a language 
performances. Implementing it the R2-way (not sure how R3 handles 
it) would kill Red performances.

If it's a stack, then there would be a small difference in letting 
the word pop, at the end of the loop, which makes it not available 
outside the loop, versus not popping it, leaving it available outside 
the loop, would there not?

It's the word's value that is stored on the stack by REPEAT (or other 
iterators), not the word itself. Words are part of contexts, that 
may or may be not stored on stack. Anyway, you can't add or remove 
a word from a local context in compiled code, at run-time.

You need to created a new context on each REPEAT call (or use some 
hacked way of caching it) and you need to BIND the loop body (even 
probably BIND/COPY it to be cleaner). Now think about the costs of 
nested loops...and all that because you don't want to define another 
local word, that could anyway be added for you by FUNCTION. Think 
twice about the trade-offs.

I submitted the FOREACH issue on github.

Thanks.

I find that the way Rebol handles it is more a limitation than an 
help. When checking for local words, you need to keep in mind two 
lists: one for the local words to collect, one for the iteration 
words, to leave apart. I prefer one simple rule rather than two rules. 
Making a few more keystrokes to add those iteration words to /local 
list is easier for me, than wasting brain processing power to tell 
apart which words I should collect, which one I should not.


Moreover, if I want the iteration words to be defined in the function 
or global context, I can't in Rebol...Looks definitely more like 
a limitation than an help to me.

Huh, it seems that both current versions of R2 and R3 are not binding 
the loop body on each call to the hidden context:


>> foo: func [code [block!] /local a b][a: 1 b: 2 repeat i 10 code]
>> foo [a: a + b]
** Script Error: a has no value
** Where: foo
** Near: a: a + b


I'm pretty sure I've seen it, maybe in older versions. Anyway, if 
current Rebol versions are not making that binding on each call, 
it makes most of my point a) irrelevant. So, you can forget about 
the binding cost. :-) Still the other concerns and limitation remain.

Hmm, my code is not testing the right binding...

>> foo: func [code [block!]][repeat i 1000 code]
>> foo [i]
== 1000

So both R2/R3 do re-bind the body block on each call.

Red would raise an error ("word has no value!") running the same 
code in the interpreter. You would need to write it this way to make 
it work:


    foo: func [code [block!] /local i][repeat i 1000 bind code 'i]


That makes the required BIND operation explicit, so the same flexibility 
as in Rebol could be achieved but in a user-controlled way and only 
when needed.

foo: func [code [block!]][repeat i 1000 code]
foo [i]


Doesn't raise an error in Red console for me. It works fine. Delcaring 
the word local to FOO does cause the error for each pass.

My first reaction was the same as Endo and Bolek, because I'm used 
to the way it is. I rarely have to alias a loop counter for access 
outside the loop, and I like the language being smart enough to help 
me, so I don't have to declare these things all the time, or worry 
about leakage.  However, my recent work on the idea of a new, general 
LOOP func (%mezz/new-loop.r here for those who didn't follow it) 
made me keenly aware of loop costs.


I've only had a few instances where it really mattered, but I've 
still almost always avoided FOR, for performance reasons.  Doc thinks 
things through carefully, and he has already said that FUNCTION could 
probably be smart enough to handle things for us, but we would have 
to consider how that works, to avoid environment dependent behavior. 
And how it affects very simple map/filter funcs. That is, do those 
one-liners now need /local specs.

Now is the time to discuss this, but it sounds like Doc has thought 
this through, and made his choice for clear reasons. If he's set 
on it, then we should look at what, if anything, needs to be done, 
to make Bolek, Endo, and others happy.

Right, it doesn't error out because `i` gets bound to global context, 
but we want `i` to be local, which should be the common use case.

Maybe this is where something like my new LOOP could be used. It 
would be a general purpose func that trades performance for flexibility 
and automatic localizing of loop vars.

Gregg, I'm still open to counter-arguments. If you want the language 
to do the job for you, FUNCTION should be able to provide you that.

Compiling the console works out of the box as described on my Macbook. 
I am impressed. The Repeat by Endo does what I read it that it should 
be doing. The Doc: is it intentional?
red>> repeat i 10 [  ]
== 10
red>> i
== 10

is what I expect it to be after the performing of the repeat. Unless 
you argue that i should only be valid inside of the repeat, but you 
should work with a function then not with a repeat. I do not see 
what is not to be liked about that?

In REBOL and Red it is the human way that is leading not the programmers 
mind that is used to bend along with the computers view of the world.
Again beautiful progress Doc.

Arnold, the point is that Rebol makes the loop counter a local word 
in a hidden context. It saves user from having to defining it as 
local manually (I have argued above about how I think this is, in 
practice, rather counter-productive).


We need to find the right balance between human-friendliness and 
efficiency/productivity.

Yes, so i should not be defined after performing the repeat. There 
is something to say about that.  On the other hand after performing 
the repeat, in my mind i is at the end of the range and thus has 
to be equal to the last value. Stupid humans ;)

so i should not be defined after performing the repeat.

 That's the Rebol way with the hidden context. In current Red implementation, 
 such context is not used.

The biggest problem I see right now is that it binds to the global 
context, which will confuse existing REBOLers. I still think it can 
be solved cleanly, and the performance gain is probably worth it. 
And you know how I hate premature optimization. :-)

The loop word is like any other word bound to the global context 
unless you declare it locally.

Right, what I meant was that LOOP, being dialected, could easily 
localize the counter word.

In %boot.red, UNLESS's second arg is called 'true-blk. Should it 
be 'false-blk? Or should both UNLESS and IF call it 'then-blk?

Good catch, `then-blk` sounds fine to me.

For conditionals, do you want to use TRUE as a shortcut? Rather than...

 "If condition is not FALSE or NONE ..."

 "If condition is not TRUE ..."

Let me see...