Rugby RIP
[1/27] from: m::koopmans2::chello::nl at: 17-Jan-2002 18:44
All,
Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it
(including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it.
With IOS coming Rebol will have a built-in distributed system. If IOS fails
there is no case for such thing anyway. I feel it is in Rebols best interest
if there 'is only one'.
Thank you all for using it and making it a fun.
Goodbye,
Maarten
[2/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 17-Jan-2002 14:29
> Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it
> (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you still have
it.
Maarten,
Thank you ... but Yeow!
Does this mean you are asking us not to post a copy of it on a web site ?
If not then why take it down?
Why not just append/include a message saying:
<quote>
The Rugby experiment is officially dead. [17Jan2002]
You may use this archive (including republishing) as the BSD license
indicates.
Rebol/IOS now has a built-in distributed system.
See http://www.rebol.com/products.html for more detail
</quote>
Even as learning code, for experiments like GORIM etc, or for people who
can't wait weeks for answers from RT about IOS
> With IOS coming Rebol will have a built-in distributed system. If IOS
fails
> there is no case for such thing anyway. I feel it is in Rebols best
interest
> if there 'is only one'.
Is there going to be a free or very cheap IOS ?
Anyone know what the price structure is/will be for IOS
[..Yes I emailed Cindy]
Does this mean IOS is going to become/replace the default REBOL/Core ?
Hard to see how there is going to be "only one", when currently RT have a
suite of annouced versions without very clear product relationships,
contents, pricing or licensing structure. hmm..
I know RT need to make some money. Absolutely no argument there..
If IOS fails there is no case for such thing anyway.
I don't get that statement at all.
IOS could fail for a zillion reasons, including poor email response,
miscalculated applications, marketing strategy, lack of clear web
presentation regarding pricing, licensing etc, MS .NET media behemoth, bad
luck, recession...
The opposite could also all be true [hope so].
imo, The only way Rubgy would be a competitor or comfusing is if people make
an awesome platfrom with apps around it, which are better cheaper faster
than IOS and give it away or sell it for much less. Hard to see. Will IOS
foster developemtn and esperimentation. I sure hope so. At the moment it
very much gives me the impression it is aimed at being a quasishrink wrapped
suite for commercial business.
> Thank you all for using it and making it a fun.
Thanks again Maarten. My comments above are really not aimed at you.. I am
just putting these concerns into the REBOL air in the hope I have
misunderstood and will be proven wrong...
./Jason
[3/27] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 17-Jan-2002 20:40
Maarten Koopmans wrote:
>All,
>Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
>Goodbye,
>Maarten
Maarten, excuse me, but that is the worst scenario you choosed to
support! I really can't understand it. What do you know of IOS that you
are sure it provides the same functionality? ;-/
I am not sure we are not doomed. Nenad stopped free fast-cgi protocol
implementation, simply to don't compete with RT, and you announce just
similar strategy for Rugby. Such kind of scenario ("there is only one
way", "mother company centric") can work against us and rebol itself in
the long run ....
Anyway, thanks for the rugby - best piece of Rebol code and proof of
easily done distributed computing so far ....
-pekr-
[4/27] from: larry:ecotope at: 17-Jan-2002 12:05
Hi Maarten,
I am very sorry to hear this news. I think there is a current and on-going
need for scripts such as Rugby. There are many REBOL users who will not be
going the full IOS/Express route due to cost and other factors.
I see no harm to RT, and much benefit to the rest of us, from the continued
availability of wonderful scripts such as Rugby. I do not agree with the
argument that if RT decides to include some feature in its commercial
product line (IOS/Express), we should not develop Core or View based apps
which share those features. Would you argue, that because some of the IOS
Reblets have simple business graphics capabilities, none of us should
develop or distribute graphics scripts?
I hope that you will reconsider this decision.
-Larry
[5/27] from: slok00:yah:oo at: 18-Jan-2002 4:02
At 02:29 PM 1/17/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Does this mean IOS is going to become/replace the default REBOL/Core ?
Following is a brief take from an email I got from Scot in RT.
===
Thought you'd want to know, that our IOS Express real-time environment is
actually built upon /Core, /Command, and /View technology. They act as
components of the overall system. So when you connect to our server you
will be experiencing the integration and interaction of the entire IOS
Technology platform. Programs written under IOS can take advantage of any
or all of these components.
Best regards,
Scot M. Sutherland
Director of Market Development
REBOL Technologies, Inc.
====
Hope this helps.
YekSoon aka slok
[6/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 9:30
On 18-Jan-02, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Maarten Koopmans wrote:
>> All,
<<quoted lines omitted: 10>>
> support! I really can't understand it. What do you know of IOS that
> you are sure it provides the same functionality? ;-/
It has certainly generated more discussion here than IOS. (:
> I am not sure we are not doomed. Nenad stopped free fast-cgi
> protocol implementation, simply to don't compete with RT, and you
> announce just similar strategy for Rugby. Such kind of scenario
> ("there is only one way", "mother company centric") can work against
> us and rebol itself in the long run ....
I had a vague feeling I'd seen Rugby mentioned on the REBOL site, but
I can't find the reference there any more. I did notice that Core,
Command and View are now refered to as "REBOL Messaging Language
Products". How long has that been the case?
> Anyway, thanks for the rugby - best piece of Rebol code and proof of
> easily done distributed computing so far ....
> -pekr-
--
Carl Read
[7/27] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 17-Jan-2002 22:11
Carl Read wrote:
>I had a vague feeling I'd seen Rugby mentioned on the REBOL site, but
>I can't find the reference there any more. I did notice that Core,
>Command and View are now refered to as "REBOL Messaging Language
>Products". How long has that been the case?
>
Or just look at RT website referred OSNews interview. Does RT thinks the
same way as Maarten does? It is strange then and means they are still
polishing their strategy then, as Carl mentions Rugby as fine request
broker in the above mentioned interview .....
-pekr-
[8/27] from: louisaturk:eudoramail at: 17-Jan-2002 15:21
Maarten,
I agree with Petr and Larry. This is a really bad decision that will hurt
rebol much more than it will help it. This is the most disappointing news
I have heard regarding rebol since I have been on this list. I would
certainly hope that these kind of decisions do not continue---that every
time someone comes up with a really great script, something happens behind
the scenes to kill it and remove it from circulation. We need these great
scripts to help us learn to program in rebol. We need rugby to help us
better understand rebol. I just can't see the existence of rugby hurting
rebol. However, I can see the death of rugby hurting rebol a lot. This
decision, I believe, is a big mistake. I sure hope you will reconsider.
Louis
At 12:05 PM 1/17/2002 -0800, you wrote:
[9/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 10:26
On 18-Jan-02, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> Carl Read wrote:
>> I had a vague feeling I'd seen Rugby mentioned on the REBOL site,
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> still polishing their strategy then, as Carl mentions Rugby as fine
> request broker in the above mentioned interview .....
Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My instincts
say to me that Maarten and RT have come to this decision together,
but that's just a gut feeling and could be wrong.
--
Carl Read
[10/27] from: nitsch-lists:netcologne at: 17-Jan-2002 22:32
RE: [REBOL] Re: Rugby RIP
[carl--cybercraft--co--nz] wrote:
> On 18-Jan-02, Petr Krenzelok wrote:
> > Maarten Koopmans wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 12>>
> Command and View are now refered to as "REBOL Messaging Language
> Products". How long has that been the case?
was mentioned by Carl Sassenrath in the os-news interview?
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=199
::
In REBOL, applications are agile. You don't need SOAP, WSDL, SCL, NASSL, UDDI, UML, MSXML,
XSLT, RMI, IIOP, DCOM, DNA, or anything else. You write it, and it works - just about
everywhere. If you need object brokering such as Corba, you can use a broker such as
Rugby. Rugby is advanced, robust, fast, and it is written in only 1500 lines of REBOL.
;;;
Maarten, what happend?
[11/27] from: brett:codeconscious at: 18-Jan-2002 8:52
Maarten,
Sounds very sudden. I hope you reconsider. People want to do things now. IOS
has been coming for a very long time.
Trying to evaluate it is isn't easy either.
Rugby makes a distributed program in minutes - it is too useful to ignore.
It is fine that you believe that there "is only one". But really, if IOS
can't prove itself to be as accessible, easy to deploy and
as functional; then Rugby has it's niche. Don't be afraid to step on IOS's
toes. IOS has to prove itself like Rugby has.
Rugby is not a threat to IOS. Rugby can help IOS by teaching concepts. As
Gregg pointed out on another thread earlier, Rugby helped him prototype a
system. I suspect that Rugby based prototype helped him to decide to
prototype in IOS.
If IOS proves itself then Rugby will silently slip of the radar because IOS
will have the weight of corporate/official support. There is no need to
terminate Rugby prematurely.
If you want to point people to IOS do so on your website and explain that
Rugby is unsupported, but don't take down such a significant achievement.
Brett.
[12/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 17-Jan-2002 17:09
> what happend?
*22-Oct-2001*
Interview: Carl Sassenrath on REBOL. OSNews.com
..If you need object brokering such as Corba, you can use a broker such as
Rugby. Rugby is advanced, robust, fast, and it is written in only 1500 lines
of REBOL.
*31-Oct-2001
Press Release: REBOL and Morpheus join forces to create the largest
programmable content network.
StreamCast, makers of Morpheus and next generation peer-to-peer content
distribution networks, will base Morpheus 2.0 on REBOL's X Internet
operating system (IOS) technology to provide interactive programmable
content to more than 30 million users by the end of the year
....
Tiny applications, called "reblets", are only about the size of a single web
page. They can be quickly created and run across dozens of operating
systems. For security, IOS is one of the first systems to offer the new
Advanced Encryption Standard (AES).
....
We're going to see a whole new world of network applications,
says Darrell
Smith, StreamCast CTO. "Applications will be morphing - expanding and
improving - in real time over the network. You will be able to locate and
use a variety of innovative applications and services for business, home,
education, and entertainment. The agility of this system will enable it to
quickly outrun .Net."
*17-Jan-2002
NY Times article: TECHNOLOGY
Black Hawk Download: Pirated Videos Thrive Online
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/technology/circuits/17VIDE.html
*17-Jan-2002
To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]>
Subject: [REBOL] Rugby RIP
Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it
(including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it...
[13/27] from: chris:langreiter at: 17-Jan-2002 23:43
> Rugby is officially dead [...]
Maarten, PLEASE NOT!
I guess the "distributed system" in IOS (whatever you're referring to
exactly) won't support XML-RPC, and I had a (maybe ;-) pretty cool
application planned with RugbyXR, so please please repost it.
Best regards,
-- Chris
[14/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 12:24
Just assumptions? Or do you know for sure that train of events are
the reasons?
I can't see IOS being threatened by Rugby, but it's possible IOS does
Rugby better than Rugby. (Plus lots of other stuff of course.) And
anyway, with regards to Rugby, "You may use it (including
republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it."
We've just lost its original developer here - not Rugby itself.
On 18-Jan-02, Jason Cunliffe wrote:
>> what happend?
> *22-Oct-2001*
<<quoted lines omitted: 30>>
> use it (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you
> stil have it...
--
Carl Read
[15/27] from: brett:codeconscious at: 18-Jan-2002 10:37
> We've just lost its original developer here - not Rugby itself.
True. But Maarten will be missed if he has decided to pull out of Rebol all
together.
Don't do it Maarten! :)
Brett.
[16/27] from: sunandadh:aol at: 17-Jan-2002 18:42
Hi Maartin,
> Rugby is officially dead, the web sites have been removed. You may use it
> (including republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it.
I'm sorry to hear you've concluded Rugby. And that was just as I was about to
start giving it a serious look.
> Goodbye,
Goodbye!? You've proved yourself as a serious middleware developer and a
Rebol guru. I hope that's not "goodbye to the list and to Rebol". If it is,
we're all the poorer for it.
If it is (and i hope it isn't), let me wish you the best in all your future
projects,
Sunanda.
[17/27] from: holger:rebol at: 17-Jan-2002 17:21
On Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:26:07AM +1200, Carl Read wrote:
> Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My instincts
> say to me that Maarten and RT have come to this decision together,
> but that's just a gut feeling and could be wrong.
It is wrong. We at RT are as surprised about this as everyone else.
At the technical level IOS does have some overlap in functionality
with Rugby, but it is targetted towards different markets and
applications than Rugby. I do not see any kind of threat for one
of those products by the other and, from that perspective, see no
reason to discontinue work on Rugby. Maarten may have had other
reasons though.
Also, keep in mind that Maarten released Rugby under the BSD license,
which basically means that anyone can use the sources for any purpose,
create derivative products (even commercial ones), include it in
other products etc., all without having to pay royalties, as long as
certain basic conditions are fulfilled (liability disclaimer,
copyright notice etc.). For a developer the BSD license is one of
the "nicest" licenses to work with, much better and less restrictive
than, e.g., GPL. So there is really nothing preventing anyone else
from picking up Rugby and continuing development on it.
--
Holger Kruse
[holger--rebol--com]
[18/27] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 17-Jan-2002 18:56
<< As Gregg pointed out on another thread earlier, Rugby helped him
prototype a system. I suspect that Rugby based prototype helped him to
decide to prototype in IOS. >>
The Rugby component is *still* a critical part of the system! We recently
licensed IOS but I don't know yet how, or if I can, replace the
functionality that Rugby currently provides.
That said, Maarten's message certainly leaves a lot of room for assumption.
We don't know what the circumstances are surrounding his decision, but I
think the outpouring of sentiment shows how important his contributions to
the REBOL community have been.
Whether it's a personal decision, a directive, or a negotiated agreement of
some kind, we don't know, but I'm sure we would all like to say "THANK YOU!"
to Maarten and let him know how much we appreciate his efforts and
camaraderie.
--Gregg
[19/27] from: chalz:earthlink at: 18-Jan-2002 0:05
From: "Larry Palmiter" <[larry--ecotope--com]>
> Hi Maarten,
>
> I am very sorry to hear this news. I think there is a current and on-going
> need for scripts such as Rugby. There are many REBOL users who will not be
> going the full IOS/Express route due to cost and other factors.
Uh, yeah. Like me :P I've *just* been becoming interested in Rugby.
Right now, I have neither the need nor money for IOS, much as I'd like to
play with it.
I'm reminded of something from the QNX RTP news groups, where a new email
client and email DDK were being announced as included in the latest QNX, and
someone else posted, "Well, guess I'll quit developing my own, then." A
couple people @qnx.com said things like, "Why? It's always useful to
practice. A variety of choices always helps the users. We encourage a
little competition here." Stuff like that. If you enjoy working on it
anyways, continue working on it, and to hell with everything else ;) My
US$0.02
--Charles
[20/27] from: chalz:earthlink at: 18-Jan-2002 0:14
Not to be overly critical, but I sometimes miss the connecting threads in
such things. Could you summarize (at least, in the future)? Thanks.
--Charles
[21/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 18:15
Thanks for the reply Holger. It cuts off one area of speculation and
from your tone I think we can safely assume RT would not mind further
developement of Rugby, which I'm sure all here are glad to hear.
On 18-Jan-02, [holger--rebol--com] wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:26:07AM +1200, Carl Read wrote:
>> Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My
<<quoted lines omitted: 17>>
> nothing preventing anyone else from picking up Rugby and continuing
> development on it.
--
Carl Read
[22/27] from: chalz:earthlink at: 18-Jan-2002 0:18
In some projects I've been working on (independent of any formal 'work'
environment), the project head (same guy, multiple times) has pushed for
publishing with the BSD license for just such reasons. Still, would anyone
else be willing to re-post the materials on another site, and let us know?
--Charles
PS: Don't take the:
> Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My instincts
> say to me that Maarten and RT have come to this decision together,
> but that's just a gut feeling and could be wrong.
the wrong way, Holger. Lots of independent developers are wary of The
Big Corporate Entity ;) After all, we've had years of people like MS to
contend with. *chuckles*
[23/27] from: carl:cybercraft at: 18-Jan-2002 19:17
On 18-Jan-02, Charles wrote:
> PS: Don't take the:
>> Hmmm, perhaps that was the reference I was thinking of. My
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> The Big Corporate Entity ;) After all, we've had years of people
> like MS to contend with. *chuckles*
I'm not sure Holger did take it the wrong way. (ie. That I meant RT
were being the heavy here.) But anyway, I chose the "have come to
this decision together" bit carefully, as I didn't want to infer RT
had put pressure on Maarten to shelve development. I could imagine
for instance RT wishing to include Rugby-like features in REBOL and
prefering to work with Maarten on its implimentation instead of
creating an incompatible duplication of his efforts. In retrospect
though, that scenero doesn't quite gel with such an abrupt ending of
developement.
Speculation loves an imformation vacuum...
--
Carl Read
[24/27] from: brett:codeconscious at: 18-Jan-2002 21:52
Hi,
> Still, would anyone
> else be willing to re-post the materials on another site, and let us know?
I could within minutes. And I'm sure others would be just as willing. But I
prefer to wait for Maarten to reclaim his spot! :)
Brett.
[25/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 18-Jan-2002 2:20
> Speculation loves an imformation vacuum...
yes one of the fundamental laws of media physics..
rfeynmanism: (if you think you understands something you must be wrong}
speculation hmm..
The way I heard it Maarten and Max were abducted by rebolutionary aliens
scouting the universe. They urgently needed to mend their silicon rocketship
which is currently bust in *lots* of strange pieces. They decided to to ask
for help from a few brilliant engineers on earth. Some special people who
might be able to help them connect the pieces together again. These are
presently flung all over the galaxy, including parts which had not even been
designed or imagined yet!
As this was an important task, and as the aliens' english is not so good,
they sensibly began by with plumb design's visual thesaurus
[http://thesaurus.plumbdesign.com/index.html]
after tweaking the controls [noun verb adverb adjective] they input the
search data: [silicon object broke connect object see controls help]
glass + rugby !! of course...
./Jason
[26/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 18-Jan-2002 3:52
> In some projects I've been working on (independent of any formal 'work'
> environment), the project head (same guy, multiple times) has pushed for
> publishing with the BSD license for just such reasons. Still, would
anyone
> else be willing to re-post the materials on another site, and let us know?
http://www.reboltech.com/library/scripts/rugby4.r
http://www.reboltech.com/library/scripts/rugby_server.r
http://www.reboltech.com/library/scripts/rugby-console.r
http://www.reboltech.com/library/html/rugby4.html
http://www.reboltech.com/library/html/rugby_server.html
http://www.reboltech.com/library/html/rugby-console.html
[27/27] from: jason:cunliffe:verizon at: 17-Jan-2002 23:31
> Just assumptions? Or do you know for sure that train of events are
> the reasons?
I know nothing. No asssumptions .. just mystery + history.
Time will tell us the rest. Ain't life grand?
> I can't see IOS being threatened by Rugby, but it's possible IOS does
> Rugby better than Rugby. (Plus lots of other stuff of course.) And
> anyway, with regards to Rugby, "You may use it (including
> republishing) as the BSD license indicates if you stil have it."
> We've just lost its original developer here - not Rugby itself.
Yes that is indeed the loss [if it proves to be that]..or perhaps just
clearing the decks for something even better.
So what's the plan now: dbms3r+rubgy4 = r3b4msbudgy / rugby4bsd3mr ?
./Jason
Notes
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