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26-Dec 11:44 UTC
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Mailing List Archive: 49091 messages
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Understanding REBOL...

 [1/6] from: carl::cybercraft::co::nz at: 10-Aug-2008 21:43


Anyone with a deep knowledge of REBOL's inner-workings want to help this guy understand them... http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-i-havent-looked-at-rebol-much.html ? -- Carl Read.

 [2/6] from: greg::schofield::iinet::net::au at: 10-Aug-2008 21:11


Carl I am very far removed from this blogger in terms of knowledge, but the documentation problem is a very real one and I like your response. He is right about the introductory manuals. I am not up to this guy's level, but somewhere between that and complete novice, but the bit by bit "learn the language" style can prove very frustrating. There is some conceptual gaps that need filling especially with R3 not far off. Rebol works, but how it works is something of a mystery and because of this anticipating what should or should not work becomes very confusing. In fact, I am leaving aside doing anything with the language until R3 emerges, my small forays have proved to me that REBOL is very very powerful and in a way that is completely new to me, but that what little hold I have on the language is easily disrupted. I am hoping the new vid system will help, as being able to produce GUI responsive scripts easily is actually the best way to learn this language (ie the ability to see what happens when a script is activated - it's a learn as you go approach the trick is you must see what happens trying to make non-trivial tools). However, REBOL needs not just more documentation but a wide divergence of material. Greg Schofield, Perth Australia --- Message Received --- From: Carl Read <carl-cybercraft.co.nz> To: rebolist-rebol.com Reply-To: rebolist-rebol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:43:04 +1200 Subject: [REBOL] Understanding REBOL... Anyone with a deep knowledge of REBOL's inner-workings want to help this guy understand them... http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-i-havent-looked-at-rebol-much.html ? -- Carl Read.

 [3/6] from: btiffin:rogers at: 10-Aug-2008 15:07


On August 10, 2008 05:43:04 am Carl Read wrote:
> Anyone with a deep knowledge of REBOL's inner-workings want to help this > guy understand them... > > http://arcanesentiment.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-i-havent-looked-at-rebol-mu >ch.html > > ? > > -- Carl Read.
I too would like to a see a document that describes the high level and connects it to assembly. The equivalent of Dr. Ralph's "The Implementation of the Icon Programming Language" would be a wondrous thing. To be honest, I've always felt like arcanesentiment. Z-80 Assembler was how I learned programming. My warm fuzzy comes from thinking in terms of addresses, registers and machine instructions. Without coming to grips at that level, I end up feeling lost. I love REBOL enough to ignore that twinge most of the time, but then feel that efforts to help out with the documentation and advocacy can only end up as epic fail due to the disconnect. And lately, I can't seem to shake an effort sapping sense of unworthiness in that regard. But all worthy things come with an emotional price and hope springs eternal. So ... Go rebols Go! Cheers Brian

 [4/6] from: carl:cybercraft at: 11-Aug-2008 17:05


On Sunday, 10-August-2008 at 21:11:28 greg.schofield wrote,
>Rebol works, but how it works is something of a mystery and because of >this anticipating what should or should not work becomes very >confusing. In fact, I am leaving aside doing anything with the language >until R3 emerges, my small forays have proved to me that REBOL is very >very powerful and in a way that is completely new to me, but that what >little hold I have on the language is easily disrupted.
I'm reasonably comfortable with the language now, (except for parsing, I not having done enough of it for it to have stuck), but I remember with leaning REBOL that it was best done by doing it. The "look at others' scripts" kind of advice I found useless. Scripts written in REBOL are not easily read and never will be. (As apposed to dialects written in REBOL, which can be if required. VID's quite good, for example.) Is a particular word data or code? Well, it can be either. And if code, is it one of the default REBOL functions? Who knows? And even if it is, in the context it's being used it may be a totally different function or actually be data. And I wouldn't have it any other way, but we need to acknowledge this can create a bumpy learning curve. -- Carl Read.

 [5/6] from: carl:cybercraft at: 11-Aug-2008 17:29


On Sunday, 10-August-2008 at 15:07:11 Brian Tiffin wrote,
>I too would like to a see a document that describes the high level and >connects it to assembly. The equivalent of Dr. Ralph's "The Implementation
<<quoted lines omitted: 6>>
>documentation and advocacy can only end up as epic fail due to the >disconnect.
I don't really find any problem with that, as I feel REBOL's so far abstracted away from the hardware for it not to matter. If the code we were writing was to be compiled it might make a difference, but it's not, it's interpreted, and all I ask is that it's interpreted the same way on whatever OS or machine it's on. We do need to know everything about how our code will be interpreted though. -- Carl Read.

 [6/6] from: greg:schofield:iinet:au at: 11-Aug-2008 20:35


--- Message Received --- From: Carl Read <carl-cybercraft.co.nz> To: rebolist-rebol.com Reply-To: rebolist-rebol.com Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:05:24 +1200 Subject: [REBOL] Re: Understanding REBOL... Carl wrote: I'm reasonably comfortable with the language now, (except for parsing, I not having done enough of it for it to have stuck), but I remember with leaning REBOL that it was best done by doing it. The look at others' scripts" kind of advice I found useless." I agree, and likewise, except in a very narrow way, the script's of others a little help but not a lot. Doing is really the only way, but it still needs a conceptual introduction (rather than step by step), an easier VID helps a lot and that is what I have been holding back for it in R3, and of course not being tripped up by habits learnt by R2. Carl: "... Is a particular word data or code? Well, it can be either. And if code, is it one of the default REBOL functions? Who knows? And even if it is, in the context it's being used it may be a totally different function or actually be data." You nailed it for me -- that is the point I get most confused on. Maybe a smart editor could help, at least to some extent. I am alright to a point, and then it just spludgers all together. I don't think it is a problem with the language -- I know it is my primitive assumptions, I am seeing the wrong things the wrong way, so I get along for a bit (it seems to get quite natural) and then I get lost -- well that is how I found things last time tried -- which by the way I ended up doing things better than I ever expected and with not much code, but then lost how to go further. There has to be a way to jump start the process. Anyhow I will await for R3 and take out all the stops to learn it properly from the basics up.
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