Curl
[1/14] from: rebol:techscribe at: 15-Mar-2001 23:25
Hi David,
let's make REBOL succeed!
Elan
David Vydra wrote:
[2/14] from: dvydra2::yahoo::com at: 15-Mar-2001 23:54
Elan,
Do you have any specific suggestions?
How about a REBOL conference?
David
--- Elan <[rebol--techscribe--com]> wrote:
> Hi David,
> let's make REBOL succeed!
<<quoted lines omitted: 98>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the
> subject, without the quotes.
=====
please reply to: [david--vydra--net]
[3/14] from: rebol:techscribe at: 16-Mar-2001 11:04
Hi David,
a few suggestions:
1. Open Source Applications
I don't have the time (right now) to pursue this, but REBOL stands to
gain in exposure if there are Open Source REBOL projects advertised on
SourceForge, SlashDot, FreshMeat, etc. The challenge is to identify
attractive, feature-rich applications (backend designs for Websites, for
instance), provide intelligent configuration, and processing dialect
that enable an interested developer to easily adapt the application to
his needs, and actively pursue their implementation.
2. REBOL based productivity tools for popular programming languages:
REBOL enables you to easily design dialect based CASE tools that can
simplify the construction of programs in other programming languages
emphasizing platform independence and reusability (across platforms). By
platforms I means programming language platforms, not only hardware
platforms. Tools that target the PHP, Java, and ASP community and
provide language independence and portability are likely to expose a
tremendous number of programmers to REBOL.
3. Traditional commercial applications that integrate REBOL as an
automation language.
Commercial applications whose success is thoroughly advertised to
manager/investor/business media to make the financers and decision
makers listen up. Requires financing and support from the REBOL
community.
David Vydra wrote:
[4/14] from: dvydra2::yahoo at: 15-Mar-2001 22:23
Christian,
Thanks for informing us about Curl. After spending an
hour looking at it, I am sure that:
1. I like REBOL better in most cases
2. I am worried about REBOL's future
Why $52M? For the marketing department, of course.
We have all seen many great technologies shelved due
to competitors better marketing.
My personal complaints for REBOL are:
1. R/View is not marketed as a GUI component for
large client/server systems, specifically servers
written in Java.
2. REBOL is not being ported to Java. Curl announced
their intention to do so.
<reflecting>
Several years ago, I joined Forte Software, which had
technically
the best solution for 3-tier
client/server systems. When Sun announced their Java
EJB spec, Forte stock plummeted from $40 to $3.
Ironically, Sun bought the company for $20/share a few
years later, but the original Forte TOOL language
seems to be dying off.
Forte was very proprietory -- not a single book on the
TOOL language has been published, so REBOL is doing
better in that department.
For all of the evils of Java, one has to admit that
there are many useful toolkits available, a few very
nice IDEs and Java does run on more platforms than
REBOL.
</reflecting>
I hope 2 years from now I will program in REBOL, not
Curl.
Regards,
David
--- Christian Langreiter <[c--langreiter--synerge--at]>
wrote:
> Curl seems to be quite similar in scope and
> direction to REBOL:
<<quoted lines omitted: 9>>
> [rebol-request--rebol--com] with "unsubscribe" in the
> subject, without the quotes.
=====
please reply to: [david--vydra--net]
[5/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 16-Mar-2001 7:48
David Vydra wrote:
> Christian,
> Thanks for informing us about Curl. After spending an
<<quoted lines omitted: 8>>
> large client/server systems, specifically servers
> written in Java.
OK - as for Rebol strategy (and I hope Dan reads it to correct me if I
am wrong :-):
1) If I understand it correctly - Express is the priority - it's very
good product imo for small-to-middle businesses
2) Carl once said Rebol is complementary technology to web ones ...., so
I think we need -
a) /shell and /library /at least for non-commercial purposes) ASAP to
become part of /Core, /View (or it's replacement /Link lite), to allow
community in general spread the word about Rebol and its coolness!
b) develop and market /Apache module - few reviews would help. The
scenario could possibly be:
- if /shell and /library are present in /Core, basic /Apache could
be free
- I am not sure when/if rebol plans on module support, as Jeff once
expressed it could help /Apache performance (technical reasons)
- /Apache based upon /Command - proper SQL support, with paid
technical assistance from RT.
The solution for RT is to have dynamic components and per-component
pricing. RT expressed themselves its the way they want to go, it just
needs time to get there ....
c) RT released beta of browser plug-in. It just knows how to launch
Rebol, once .r file is invoked via URL, or website contains some
specific code IIRC, but it lacks one very serious feature, which WILL
imo have direct impact on acceptance of such plug-in - it can't draw
inside browser's window. Maybe I am wrong but I regard it pretty
essential issue. PPL regard everything what's displayed in their browser
being standard.
3) Rebol for Java? The discussion was here already :-) Well, we all know
Rebol is way cooler than Java. We all know Java takes some 10MB. But ppl
don't care of it's size, once they get it with OS/browser install. Rebol
for Java or Rebol for Tao Elate could higher general language acceptance
...
4) in some earlier Rebol days, there was some metnion of Rebol Command
Toolkit - Rebol in form of libraries. I am not sure if it is technically
possible, but if developers could invoke rebol scripts directly from C
or Java code, while there would be some kind of API to allow work with
some of Rebol datatypes directly (using /library we have to copy all
data here and there, no chance to tell library to do something with
rebol block directly e.g.) ... but here I just guess what could be
possible ....
> <reflecting>
> Several years ago, I joined Forte Software, which had
<<quoted lines omitted: 12>>
> REBOL.
> </reflecting>
Your reflection is good example that sometimes we need more tactics than
what product/technology excelence itself means ....
> I hope 2 years from now I will program in REBOL, not
> Curl.
>
We all hope so ;-)
Cheers,
-pekr-
[6/14] from: c:langreiter:synerge:at at: 14-Mar-2001 19:50
Curl seems to be quite similar in scope and direction to REBOL:
http://www.cag.lcs.mit.edu/curl/wwwpaper.html
http://www.curl.com
They just got $52m in funding.
Any opinions?
Best regards,
Chris
[7/14] from: jamesh:volition-inc at: 14-Mar-2001 13:48
> http://www.cag.lcs.mit.edu/curl/wwwpaper.html
> http://www.curl.com
>
> They just got $52m in funding.
>
> Any opinions?
Hmmm...this kind of thing seems to be quite frequent :)
My gut reactions:
1. It is more academic feeling, right down to the developers thinking being
like TeX is a good thing :)
2. They are much more interested in being object-oriented, which I don't see
as a good thing.
3. The screenshots were of the horribly ugly UNIX UI variety :)
There are a lot of languages out there with ties to the web---Perl, Ruby,
Python, Erlang--and just as many others with lots of good ideas, like
Objective Caml, Lisp, and Prolog. What the REBOL developers got right is a
brilliant combination of smallness, expressiveness, and usefulness, plus a
distinct lack of language designer curmudgeonliness. It may not be the best
language for all purposes, but it is perhaps the best balance of what is
needed to be productive.
James
[8/14] from: jbone:jump at: 14-Mar-2001 13:57
So how the hell do you get $52M in funding for implementing Scheme in
a browser plug-in, with curly braces replacing parens and a TeX
rip-off DOM?
:shakes head in amazement...
jb
Christian Langreiter wrote:
[9/14] from: depotcity:home at: 14-Mar-2001 12:14
How do you get 52M for reinventing the wheel?
TB
[10/14] from: ryan:christiansen:intellisol at: 14-Mar-2001 14:31
It may not be the best language for all purposes, but it is perhaps the
best balance of what is
needed to be productive.
Perfectly said. May I use this in my sig file? :)
Ryan C. Christiansen
Web Developer
Intellisol International
4733 Amber Valley Parkway
Fargo, ND 58104
701-235-3390 ext. 6671
FAX: 701-235-9940
http://www.intellisol.com
Global Leader in People Performance Software
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[11/14] from: jamesh:volition-inc at: 14-Mar-2001 14:52
> "It may not be the best language for all purposes, but it is
> perhaps the
> best balance of what is
> needed to be productive."
>
> Perfectly said. May I use this in my sig file? :)
Heh. Feel free.
[12/14] from: jseq:mediaone at: 14-Mar-2001 15:59
As a new language junkie, I'm beta testing Curl right now, and I've just
written my first few rebol scripts. Here's some quick thoughts from a
newbie.
Where they're the same:
Curl and Rebol both provide a low barrier to entry, meaning simple things
are simple to do in a way not true of most languages. Simple in Curl is
more about moving from simple content presentation (the TeX ancestry) up to
full-fledged system programming in an easy way. I think Rebol has achieved
similar goals with the View dialect. Both platforms bridge scripting and OO
languages - allowing you to mix procedural and oo semantics, with Curl more
on the OO side and Rebol more on the scripting side. Curl does have more
code-fattening language features that James alluded to, so Rebol still
remains the champion of concise coding. Both allow you to implement a type
of sandbox for untrusted applets and are working fiercely on rounding out
their script-distribution framework.
Where they differ:
Rebol is very lightweight compared to Curl (~200K vs. ~2M plug-in), and
already available on many many platforms (although is View really
released?). Curl is just getting ready to launch their browser plugin for
Windows. They'll follow with Mac and then Linux, and will provide
scripting and application (exe) capability (like Command). They've
announced plans to go onto mobile devices. Curl has a built-in 2-d and 3-d
graphics library. View has a lot of 2D stuff that's easily accessible, but
I don't think it's as powerful as Curl's. Curl includes an IDE with a
debugger and object inspector that is very very cool, but it also has an
emacs mode.
I think the world (okay - at least me) needs a way to distribute
applications on many different platforms that does more on the client than
HTML+JavaScript or (shudder) DHTML. I'm anti-Java for this purpose,
because I just plain don't like being forced to do OO. With Java about to
be nuked in browsers as a default (i.e. IE6), I think there's an opening
for competing solutions. I hope that one of the aforementioned companies
can fill this void (please, no more Flash!).
John Sequeira
http://www.pobox.com/~johnseq
[johnseq--pobox--com]
[13/14] from: gjones05:mail:orion at: 15-Mar-2001 5:49
From: John Sequeira
> As a new language junkie, I'm beta testing Curl right now, and I've
just
> written my first few rebol scripts. Here's some quick thoughts from a
> newbie.
<huge snip>
Thanks, John. That was a very helpful language comparison. I ran across
Curl a few days ago and was looking for a quick overview that would allow
comparison. Amazingly, Curl has stayed below slashdot's radar screen.
Out of curiosity, is it apparent how the Curl folks will be handling shell
access and library/dll access? Have they revealed how they intend to make
money off the venture? Will the current beta that will soon be released
as a product be "sold"? Just curious if it is apparent.
--Scott Jones
[14/14] from: chris:langreiter at: 15-Mar-2001 14:00
> Amazingly, Curl has stayed below slashdot's radar screen.
It already gets its share of flames on FoRK ;-)
> Have they revealed how they intend to make
> money off the venture? Will the current beta that will soon be released
> as a product be "sold"? Just curious if it is apparent.
On their developer site they say something along the lines of "Uhm,
open-source great, foundation of the web, will open-source something don't
know yet what, non-commercial use will remain free, commercial use will be
metered (!) - [by kB transmitted or 'saved', not yet clear to me] - and
that's how we'll make $1b/yr." - So well.
Nevertheless, the system has some nice aspects - especially the Graphics
components _seem_ to be more powerful than R/V's. However, they don't even
have anything XML-related in the package - and neither I've seen sound
support ... but why bothering about an "application environment" then?!
Thanks for the opinions,
Chris
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