REBOL might be easy, but not with this documentation
[1/5] from: rebolmikko:ya:hoo at: 18-Oct-2001 3:14
I'm reporting my very early experiences as a REBOL
programmer - although I have read about the progress
with the language several years, I just hours ago
started to program my first scripts.
The problem with programming REBOL is that the
documentation lacks. It is well written sort of and I
guess everything is there, BUT: it clearly shows that
someone too familiar with the language has written it.
Let's take the problem I solved just minutes ago as
example: I wanted to have a window with no borders and
no title. I had no idea what to do. I looked at quite
many documents, such as the beginner's guide to
REBOL/View, but no help. After some time I tried the
command-line help (I didn't read about command line
help anywhere, I just tried it because many systems
have such thing). Ok, I had already knowledge about
view-command, so I instantly saw that I had to use
refinements
. So I tried: "view/options [no-title
no-border] layout[...". After some more time I finally
found an example by using altavista search
+view/options +rebol
from codeconscious.com, which
showed that "[no-title no-border]" must come after the
layout block.
Ok, so I didn't read the manuals very well before
starting to program - but how many does? I understand
that REBOL Technologies might not have huge resources
to put on writing the documentation. But how about
adding a possibility to send short scripts with errors
to rebol.com and using them as a material for
producing a better error parser (the current one isn't
very good, you admit?)?
I guess my personal problems will go away with the
books I have ordered, but not all of the millions of
programmers you are trying to lure to use REBOL will
buy a book... 8)
Cheers,
Mikko Mäkelä
[2/5] from: carl:cybercraft at: 19-Oct-2001 0:28
On 18-Oct-01, Mikko "Mäkelä wrote:
> I'm reporting my very early experiences as a REBOL
> programmer - although I have read about the progress
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> guess everything is there, BUT: it clearly shows that
> someone too familiar with the language has written it.
Currently you need to seperate Core from View when it comes to
documentation. Core is reasonably well documented. I find I turn to
the User Guide first when looking for info, (well, after the console
help has failed me), though I do wish it had an index. (I'm talking
about the book here, but it's online on RT's site too.)
View on the other hand hasn't any books yet, (and it looks like the
first one to cover it will be in French), so we're left with what's
online, which is partly on RT's website and partly on their rebsite.
(Accessed via the View Desktop.) Plus there's some of the old beta
docs about that cover View (as apposed to VID) better than the latter
ones. See the following for instance...
http://www.rebolforces.com/archive/view099users.html
though of course some of that might be out of date now.
> Let's take the problem I solved just minutes ago as
> example: I wanted to have a window with no borders and
<<quoted lines omitted: 13>>
> Ok, so I didn't read the manuals very well before
> starting to program - but how many does?
Complaining about the lack of documentation and then saying you don't
read it very well anyway is, ummm, err, something. (:
But you are right - the definitive REBOL book (or online guide) hasn't
been written yet, and the View docs leave a lot to be desired.
Hopefully a View book will be out soon - it's sure needed.
However, a reasonable understanding of Core is needed before you can
do much with View. Function refinements for instance are explained
well in the Core Guide. See...
http://www.rebol.com/docs/core23/rebolcore-9.html
> I understand
> that REBOL Technologies might not have huge resources
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
> programmers you are trying to lure to use REBOL will
> buy a book... 8)
Well, the Core User Guide's online, so full marks to RT for that.
> Cheers,
> Mikko Mäkelä
--
Carl Read
[3/5] from: office::thousand-hills::net at: 18-Oct-2001 8:00
I downloaded a script from REBOL.org and I think one was zipped into the
REBOL -that sends error report via a pop up window to mail it directly.
I will look for the file.
John
fAt 03:14 AM 10/18/2001 -0700, you wrote:
[4/5] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 18-Oct-2001 13:07
Hi Mikko,
I've only been REBOLing for a few months, so I'm in sort of the same
position you are.
<< The problem with programming REBOL is that the
documentation lacks. It is well written sort of and I
guess everything is there, BUT: it clearly shows that
someone too familiar with the language has written it. >>
It's kind of an ironic situation. There's an embarassment of riches to be
found in all the sample scripts that people have on their REB sites and in
the library, but it's difficult to find what you want and extract it. Also,
as a beginner, it is not always clear *why* things are done or what the
important details are. I often find myself extracting a bit of code and
immediately breaking it because I didn't understand what all it was doing.
It's not always clear if something is being done the way RT intended us to
do things or if it's a workaround. OTOH, I've been able, as a beginnger, to
accomplish things that no beginner has the right to do. :)
I'm trying to keep track of things as I learn them, so please feel free to
post here, or send me mail, when you come up with a question that you think
newcomers will want answered.
--Gregg
[5/5] from: allenk:powerup:au at: 19-Oct-2001 7:15
This is also in the FAQ at http://www.rebolforces.com/view-faq.html
And of course using "? view" on the command line. But maybe the output of
help isn't enough if you haven't read the basic /core manuals.
Articles and documentation written from the beginners perspective are
needed, feel free to contribute. (another article plug ;-)
Cheers,
Allen K
Learn to crawl first, then walk ... core before view.
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