Windows Crash
[1/25] from: mattsmac:hotm:ail at: 29-Sep-2003 8:23
Does anybody know any common circumstances in REBOL that would cause a REBOL
program to crash in windows. You know, that do/don't send info to microsoft
crash? I'm not really even sure where to start looking to fix something
like that.
Matt
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[2/25] from: carlos:lorenz:bol at: 29-Sep-2003 9:40
I have some crashes eventually but I guess this is
Windows problems, since REBOL under Linux is just fine
Carlos
> Does anybody know any common circumstances in REBOL tha
t would cause a REBOL
> program to crash in windows. You know, that do/don't s
end info to microsoft
> crash? I'm not really even sure where to start looking
to fix something
> like that.
>
> Matt
>
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[3/25] from: odycy:sympatico:ca at: 29-Sep-2003 9:38
Matt - I've never experienced a REBOL cause, but I'd be real happy to send
you a Gb or two of Windows bugs that crash useful stuff like AltMe
SafeWorlds & other Rebol apps. :) - Pete
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:23:35 -0400, Matt MacDonald <[mattsmac--hotmail--com]>
wrote:
> Does anybody know any common circumstances in REBOL that would cause a
> REBOL
<<quoted lines omitted: 7>>
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[4/25] from: mattsmac:h:otmail at: 29-Sep-2003 9:48
I'm not saying it's a bug at all. It could just be something I'm doing. I
just wanted to know if any particular situations, loops, timers, engages,
etc. have a tendency to cause this problem
Matt
>From: "Matt MacDonald" <[mattsmac--hotmail--com]>
>Reply-To: [rebol-list--rebol--com]
<<quoted lines omitted: 15>>
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[5/25] from: amicom:sonic at: 29-Sep-2003 7:12
Matt,
I've seen it happen when Rebol consumes too much memory. Check out
system/stats to see how much memory your program is consuming (maybe keep a
running logfile to see if this is the case). I wrote an application that
started to do strange things including Windows system crashes when memory
consumption got above 100MB. There are ways to get Rebol to minimize
memory usage. I find this becomes much more of an issue when writing large
apps or long-running apps.
Bohdan "Bo" Lechnowsky
Lechnowsky Technical Consulting
At 09:48 AM 9/29/03 -0400, you wrote:
[6/25] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 29-Sep-2003 16:13
Hi Matt,
On Monday, September 29, 2003, 3:48:27 PM, you wrote:
MM> I'm not saying it's a bug at all. It could just be something I'm doing. I
Well, if it crashes, it's probably a bug. However, it's not easy
to say what it could be... A known bug which causes crashes is on
LOAD when supplying it the output of MOLD/ALL, especially if you
molded a lot of objects.
Regards,
Gabriele.
--
Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer
Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/
[7/25] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 29-Sep-2003 16:32
Hi Matt,
Although Rebol interpret is very stable and good piece of code there are
still some bugs which could crash it.
here are two example which bothers me in View(in both try to press "hide box
button"):
FIRST CRASH EXAMPLE
a: make face [
size: 50x50
color: red
]
b: make face [
color: blue pane: [a]
]
view layout [
bx: box with [
pane: [b]
]
button "hide box" [
hide bx
]
]
SECOND CRASH EXAMPLE
a: make face [size: 50x50 color: red]
view layout [
box with [
color: blue
pane: reduce [a]
]
button "hide box" [
hide a/parent-face
]
]
Also drawing filled polygons bigger than visible area of window using DRAW
dialect can cause problems like strange console message "not-enough memory"
like:
view layout [box 200x200 effect [draw [fill-pen red polygon 406x-672 227x43
1022x782 fill-pen blue polygon 406x-672 1022x782 -44x126]]]
regards,
Cyphre
PS: there is probably more situations in other fields than graphics how to
crash Rebol but I remember those because I spent lot of time when debugging
them...
[8/25] from: mattsmac:h:otmail at: 29-Sep-2003 10:53
What are these ways to minimize memory usage?
Matt,
I've seen it happen when Rebol consumes too much memory. Check out
system/stats to see how much memory your program is consuming (maybe keep a
running logfile to see if this is the case). I wrote an application that
started to do strange things including Windows system crashes when memory
consumption got above 100MB. There are ways to get Rebol to minimize
memory usage. I find this becomes much more of an issue when writing large
apps or long-running apps.
>From: "Matt MacDonald" <[mattsmac--hotmail--com]>
>Reply-To: [rebol-list--rebol--com]
<<quoted lines omitted: 37>>
>To unsubscribe from this list, just send an email to
>[rebol-request--rebol--com] with unsubscribe as the subject.
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[9/25] from: mattsmac::hotmail at: 29-Sep-2003 13:59
Hey Cyphre, does any of this look crash worthy to you??
im pretty sure this is where the crash is happening, but it's not
consistent, sometimes it will happen right away, other times it will take 3
or so hours.
files is a text-list
probe-messages: func [/local tempmsg emessages j k l m]
[
insert remote2 encrypt "Send IDs"
wait remote2
clear messages
while [record: pick remote2 1][append messages decrypt record]
clear files/data
clear msg_ids
msgs: []
clear msgs
for i 1 (length? messages) 5
[
j: i + 1
k: i + 2
l: i + 3
m: i + 4
tempmsg: make msg_info
[
msgid: messages/:i
from: messages/:j
fromid: messages/:k
subject: messages/:l
date: copy/part messages/:m (length? messages/:m) - 5
]
replace/all tempmsg/date "." ":"
insert msg_ids tempmsg
while [(length? tempmsg/date) < 25]
[append tempmsg/date " "]
while [(length? tempmsg/from) < 25]
[append tempmsg/from " "]
emessages: rejoin [tempmsg/date "" tempmsg/from "" tempmsg/subject]
insert msgs emessages
]
append files/data msgs
;update-text-list files
files/update
]
Thanks, Matt
Hi Matt,
Although Rebol interpret is very stable and good piece of code there are
still some bugs which could crash it.
here are two example which bothers me in View(in both try to press "hide box
button"):
FIRST CRASH EXAMPLE
a: make face [
size: 50x50
color: red
]
b: make face [
color: blue pane: [a]
]
view layout [
bx: box with [
pane: [b]
]
button "hide box" [
hide bx
]
]
SECOND CRASH EXAMPLE
a: make face [size: 50x50 color: red]
view layout [
box with [
color: blue
pane: reduce [a]
]
button "hide box" [
hide a/parent-face
]
]
Also drawing filled polygons bigger than visible area of window using DRAW
dialect can cause problems like strange console message "not-enough memory"
like:
view layout [box 200x200 effect [draw [fill-pen red polygon 406x-672 227x43
1022x782 fill-pen blue polygon 406x-672 1022x782 -44x126]]]
regards,
Cyphre
PS: there is probably more situations in other fields than graphics how to
crash Rebol but I remember those because I spent lot of time when debugging
them...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt MacDonald" <[mattsmac--hotmail--com]>
To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 3:48 PM
Subject: [REBOL] Re: Windows Crash
>I'm not saying it's a bug at all. It could just be something I'm doing.
I
>just wanted to know if any particular situations, loops, timers, engages,
>etc. have a tendency to cause this problem
<<quoted lines omitted: 16>>
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
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[10/25] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 30-Sep-2003 9:30
> I've seen it happen when Rebol consumes too much memory. Check out
[...]
> consumption got above 100MB. There are ways to get Rebol to minimize
I had rebol go above 600MB a few times without problems.
maybe its more related to the sheer number of contexts, declared words, or the total
amount of memory handling the application has to handle at once.
Carl also said his list handling script (before being off-lined) would run months-on-end
without needing any attention...
I just noticed that version 1.2.10 is MUCH better at crashes and many of my prior issues
have been fixed. but as Cyphre detailed, there are still some more obscure crashes possible...
the draw dialect bug is still the more dangerous IMHO.
I think most crashes occur only if a view face is visible. I think People not using
view won't have any crash in their lifetime. could just be me though.
-Max
[11/25] from: eskape:tdcadsl:dk at: 30-Sep-2003 20:24
I'm running Windows 2000 with all service packs and updates installed.
A simple way to "freeze" REBOL/View 1.2.1.3.1 on my machine is:
- Open the console
- Type "help rebol"
and it hangs :-(
I gives me the feeling that it's a bit bit early for commercial aplications.
It works fine in REBOL/Core 2.5.6.3.1:
>> help xxx
No information on xxx (word has no value)
>> help rebol
REBOL is an object of value:
version tuple! 2.5.6.3.1
build date! 5-Aug-2003/17:07:52-7:00
product word! Core
components block! length: 9
words object! [unset! error! datatype! context! native! action! ...
license string! {REBOL End User License Agreement IMPORTANT. READ ...
options object! [home script path boot args do-arg link-url server...
user object! [name email home words]
script object! [title header parent path args words]
console object! [history keys prompt result escape busy tab-size b...
ports object! [input output echo system serial wait-list]
network object! [host host-address]
schemes object! [default Finger Whois Daytime SMTP POP IMAP HTTP F...
error object! [throw note syntax script math access command resv...
standard object! [script port port-flags email]
view none! none
stats native! System statistics. Default is to return total memo...
locale object! [months days]
user-license object! [name email id message]
>>
Steffen (of Denmark)
[12/25] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 30-Sep-2003 12:45
Hi Steffen,
SKP> A simple way to "freeze" REBOL/View 1.2.1.3.1 on my machine is:
SKP> - Open the console
SKP> - Type "help rebol"
SKP> and it hangs :-(
SKP> I gives me the feeling that it's a bit bit early for commercial aplications.
SKP> It works fine in REBOL/Core 2.5.6.3.1:
If you wait long enough, you should see results. The issue is that
'REBOL is synonymous with 'system and under View system contains VID,
which contains some circular references.
-- Gregg
[13/25] from: brett:codeconscious at: 1-Oct-2003 10:52
Later experimental versions REBOL/View deal better with outputting these
circular references to the screen.
Regards,
Brett.
[14/25] from: cyphre:seznam:cz at: 1-Oct-2003 9:58
Hi Steffen,
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steffen Kahr Pedersen" <[eskape--tdcadsl--dk]>
To: <[rebol-list--rebol--com]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:24 PM
Subject: [REBOL] Re: Windows Crash
> I'm running Windows 2000 with all service packs and updates installed.
>
> A simple way to "freeze" REBOL/View 1.2.1.3.1 on my machine is:
>
> - Open the console
> - Type "help rebol"
>
> and it hangs :-(
>
this behaviour is fixed in later versions(experimental but stable as the
official last 1.2.1) I tried it under View 1.2.5, 1.2.8 and 1.2.10 and it
works without problem like in Core 2.5.6 as you stated.
I believe RT will release new official View 1.3 version soon...
regards,
Cyphre
[15/25] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 1-Oct-2003 9:53
Hi Steffen,
On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, 8:24:08 PM, you wrote:
SKP> A simple way to "freeze" REBOL/View 1.2.1.3.1 on my machine is:
It's not that it is freezing, it is that you're asking it to MOLD
a *HUGE* object a a big number of circular references (which View
1.2.1's MOLD does not handle at all). The result is it trying to
produce an infinite string.
Newer versions are better at molding circular references, and if
you have enough memory you'll probably be able to MOLD the system
object in /Core or in /View if you have not shown the desktop at
startup, but you won't be able to MOLD the system object if you
have shown any face in /View as there are simply too many circular
references.
SKP> I gives me the feeling that it's a bit bit early for commercial aplications.
I have delivered a number of commercial applications and will
continue to do so. It has saved me a LOT of time and work and will
continue to do so. YMMV. :-)
Regards,
Gabriele.
--
Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer
Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/
[16/25] from: amicom:sonic at: 1-Oct-2003 6:59
At 09:53 AM 10/1/03 +0200, you wrote:
>On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, 8:24:08 PM, you wrote:
>SKP> I gives me the feeling that it's a bit bit early for commercial
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
>Regards,
> Gabriele.
I have also delivered a number of commercial applications with great
success. As with any language, there are some things you should simply
avoid doing.
Bohdan "Bo" Lechnowsky
Lechnowsky Technical Consulting
[17/25] from: eskape:tdcadsl:dk at: 2-Oct-2003 14:20
Hi Gabriele & Bohdan,
Thank you for your comments re commercial applications.
I should be very happy to be convinced.
I'm also curious as to what type af applications?
Regards Steffen
[18/25] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 2-Oct-2003 8:41
hi, sorry for inserting myself in the discussion, but here are example of commercial
applications which I have done
I have programmed and sold a rebol/pro application which controls a broadcast Didgital
disk
(video) recorder and transfers images to it via a tcp channel OR a direct hardware scsi
disk interface by using the low-level aspi.dll. The interface uses an edit list so that
you can insert clips anywhere in the DDR without having to punch numbers...
I also have personal commercial applications which handle 3d animtion and compositing
render farm, as well a post-production shot management tracker, which even handles rendering
and flipping of various post-production tools without having to actually open those applications.
-MAx
---
You can either be part of the problem or part of the solution, but in the end, being
part of the problem is much more fun.
[19/25] from: g:santilli:tiscalinet:it at: 2-Oct-2003 14:44
Hi Steffen,
On Thursday, October 2, 2003, 2:20:42 PM, you wrote:
SKP> I'm also curious as to what type af applications?
Mainly custom applications developed specifically for a client.
The kind of stuff most people does in VB. ;)
Regards,
Gabriele.
--
Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer
Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/
[20/25] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 2-Oct-2003 15:07
Steffen Kahr Pedersen wrote:
>Hi Gabriele & Bohdan,
>
>Thank you for your comments re commercial applications.
>
>I should be very happy to be convinced.
>
>I'm also curious as to what type af applications?
>
>Regards Steffen
>
Whatever ones :-) Your thinking should be lead in a following way - what
other tool would you use if it was not rebol? Are you familiar with such
tool? I expect we talk tools league of Delphi, VB etc. E.g. we used here
CA-Visual Objects (as I come from Clipper world). So, let's start with
pekr's rules :-)
- don't trust stupid argumenting such as - "if you use VB, don't even
dare calling yourself a programmer". Good coder would never tell you
such sentense, as he/she knows, that right tool at right time at your
hand is what matters. What is more - if you are not familiar with those
tools, forget you start utilising your tool easily. It does not matter
you know what is object programming about - you have to learn classes,
events, their logic, etc. If you already came to rebol, it is clear you
want to do some apps "your way". E.g. with VO, we scrapped all templates
and produced our logic - I hate those templates which can solve easy
cases for you, but once you go deeper and deeper in a problem, you
end-up with kludgy code. So in the end we had some small IS sales system
done. Do you think our users care what it was programmed in, or how
sophisticated object logic it uses? :-)
I use "minimalistic" aproach - ask yourself :
- does it work? If so, who cares what sophisticated tool you used -
users/customers don't!
- Is it fast enough? Now I mean mainly speed. There is old trade-off of
speed of scripting languages. Only morons can claim such things
nowadays, at least for general apps. Fast enough is simply fast enough.
I often can hear - but my C++ code would work 10x faster. Well, ppl
claiming so very often forget the fact, that today's PC is x times
faster than yesterday's server ;-) so - for general business apps, rebol
is more than ideal. Forget some video, sound capabilities - we are slow
and not there yet, forget writing MS Office clone using rebol etc.
- don't try to provide your app with native OS skins! Well - that is my
suggestion. I know some ppl think otherwise, but I can tell you, that my
ppl notice my apps, because they look slightly different. E.g. REBOL IOS
has very pleasant feeling - if it would have native Windows look - it
would just look as other windows based app ... so - use the difference
as your advantage!
- Does it behave consistently? And now take care! VID is still not
consistent in some cases. While I prefer different look of app, I know
that what ppl hate is different app behavior (I talk keyboard navigation
here). But there are some patches mainly from Romano, which help in that
area. And - after all - once you will become more fluent with View, you
can change lot's of things yourself.
- more styles - ask Cyphre for tree-view, list-view, tabs, menu etc
styles - they are very nice, even in beta. There was VID 1.3 community
effort but it is not finished. I know RT wants to do something in that
regard, as current VID stopped imo in some 80% of perfection (missing
styles, some inconsistencies, capabilities ...)
- time to market - I can bet that Rebol will allow you to very quickly
prototype your app. You will be designing it around your thoughts. Rebol
is first environment which provides me with such feeling. e.g. in VO I
had to wrap my thinking around strict object logic. Rebol is free-form.
- what rebol lacks a bit is simple built-in database (IIRC Gabriele did
something in that regard but I don't know its state). So it depends what
are your intentions. Rebol/Command has ODBC interface, using View/Pro
you can use Firebird wrapper and even with non-profi Rebol products you
can use e.g. Postgress and MySQL - we have cool folk called DocKimbel
here, who did really nice drivers ...
Enjoy reboling!
-pekr-
[21/25] from: carlos:lorenz:bol at: 2-Oct-2003 10:23
Em Qui 02 Out 2003 14:44, Gabriele Santilli escreveu:
:)> Hi Steffen,
> On Thursday, October 2, 2003, 2:20:42 PM, you wrote:
> SKP> I'm also curious as to what type af applications?
<<quoted lines omitted: 5>>
> Gabriele Santilli <[g--santilli--tiscalinet--it]> -- REBOL Programmer
> Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila --- SOON: http://www.rebol.it/
--
Carlos Lorenz
--
Kurumin é 10
www.kurumin.org
[22/25] from: antonr:iinet:au at: 3-Oct-2003 0:05
Matt,
Check out insert/dup for a bit of optimization.
(Not saying this will remove the crash, but it's probably
better anyway.)
insert/dup tail tempmsg/date (25 - length? tempmsg/date) " "
Anton.
[23/25] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 2-Oct-2003 10:34
> - don't try to provide your app with native OS skins! Well -
> that is my suggestion. I know some ppl think otherwise, but I can tell
> you, that my ppl notice my apps, because they look slightly different.
> E.g. REBOL IOS has very pleasant feeling - if it would have native Windows look - it
> would just look as other windows based app ... so - use the
> difference as your advantage!
can't agree more.
I've had the same reaction with my sheet-metal skin. Many people identify to things
which make them stand out.
Winamp is a good example of this. once ppl know they can switch skins and they see the
truly terrific skins that are haging around on the net, they get addicted and will install
the skin that matches their personality the most...
-MAx
[24/25] from: amicom:sonic at: 2-Oct-2003 9:16
Steffen,
Some of the commercial applications I've written:
A recruiting database that automates a number of functions for the
recruiters including automated faxing and emailing. Contains close to
1,500,000 candidates and over 500,000 communication records including
resumes in .doc and .pdf formats. Allows automatic branding of resumes
with a corporate logo and disclaimer when sending out to prospective
employers. Many, many other functions.
Caller ID application that notifies all specified computers on a network
when calls are coming in and who the call is from. Only one computer needs
a caller ID capable modem. Allows storage and retrieval of notes on
specific calls and callers so anyone in the office can know who handled the
caller in the past and what the call was about immediately.
Point of Sale application that allows for easy invoicing, sales reports,
and customer contact information.
Easy website builder. Takes a directory on a local computer and turns each
subdirectory into its own page automatically organizing the text files and
pictures in that directory into the page. See http://www.lechnotech.com
for an example of a site built with this tool. (Sorry the site doesn't
look so good, haven't had time to polish it up yet.)
Terminal emulation program that connects to a mainframe through a serial
port and allows a customizable interface on a PC with extended
functionality instead of using a dumb terminal.
And there's lots more, but I need to get busy so I can support my family. :-)
Bohdan "Bo" Lechnowsky
Lechnowsky Technical Consulting
At 02:20 PM 10/2/03 +0200, you wrote:
[25/25] from: SunandaDH:aol at: 2-Oct-2003 14:31
> hi, sorry for inserting myself in the discussion,
Me too.
I've done a number of substantial applications. None of them technically
commercial in that they haven't been sold. But they are in daily use by
non-profits.
One application you can take a look at is the REBOL Script Library:
http://www.rebol.org
(Still work in progress, so there are some rough edges).
I didn't do that all on my own -- lots of code from Volker and Gregg. Plus
we were very easily able to integrate Andrew's eText and Robert's Make-doc-pro
despite them being written as stand-alone non-CGI programs.
And we develop of different platforms (Windows, Linux; Apache, Xitami) for a
production environment different to anything any of us use (UNIX, Apache).
With one minor problem (due to the production version of Core) it was remarkable
how cross-platform REBOL is.
As a collaborative development environment for CGI applications, it takes a
lot of beating,
Sunanda.
Notes
- Quoted lines have been omitted from some messages.
View the message alone to see the lines that have been omitted