REALLY DISCOVER THE POWER OF REBOL
[1/27] from: edinburgh:veitchi at: 21-Sep-2000 16:26
REALLY DISCOVER THE POWER OF REBOL
I have been learning, using & experimenting with REBOL for about
18 months now and I'm sure like many others on this List am very
excited about REBOL, it's power & it's prospects.
As I once read somewhere, REBOL is the cocaine of scripting languages,
it is highly addictive & you just have to get more!.
Various interesting issues frequently crop up on this list, for example,
aspects of a particular REBOL behaviour or feature, suspected bugs /
problems,
future developments, wish lists, feature requests etc.
Another great feature of the REBOL community is sharing of knowledge,
experience, help, advice & generally friendly nature of comments
& debates. All those who regularly feature on the list participate
willingly & constructively, which is also great.
Carl & all the rest of the REBOL Crew are also doing great work,
producing quality products as well as finding time to contribute
to the various lists, to explain, to announce, to clarify & even
to disagree as appropriate.
What is not so great is the frustrations which surface on the list
from time to time. Feature's not yet implemented, Which Products
should be given priority /Core /View /Command /Express etc,
Documentation or the sufficient lack of, Late Release dates,
Persisting bugs, Platforms supported, Rebols future direction or needs.
First of all as I previously stated Carl & Rebol Co. are doing a great
job developing the language, products, documentation, communicating to
lists, organising & running Rebol Technologies to provide us with
REBOL as we've come to know and love.
Are we happy with their contribution - YES Indeed!, can we expect them
to do more - NO!, they're doing their very best to juggle the conflicting
demands & successfully keep all the balls in the air & keep everyone happy.
Should we be content & just accept the situation as things are,
afterall the REBOL people are doing their best, REBOL's available for
free, should we be happy with what we've got, we can't reasonably
demand anymore.
Not necessarily so, WE CAN HELP OURSELVES!
If we really want to understand the internals of REBOL, if we really
want the language to develop as we would wish & not at the behest of
a Corporate Management or Marketing Department, WE CAN HELP OURSELVES!
WE CAN HELP OURSELVES!
This is my main point of what is becoming a very long post indeed.
The finite resources & corporate demands on REBOL TECHNOLOGIES inc.
are the biggest bottleneck to the future direction & speed of development
of REBOL, as a language & technology.
Third Party Developers is where the real growth of REBOL or any software
technology comes from, and right now the biggest Third Party is US,
Rebol.org, the users list!
Now to the meat of my suggested solutions, two projects, organised
& run by us, the people on the REBOL lists, developed & discussed
either here or at some other friendly host like www.egroups.com .
Project 1 - OSCAR
OSCAR Open Source Code Aka Rebol
OSCAR Open Source Code Attempted Rebol
OSCAR Open Source Code Acts-like Rebol
OSCAR Open Source Code Adheres-to Rebol
OSCAR Open Source Code Assimilates Rebol
Pet-Name ( Alternative ? )
CARLS CARL Sassenrath's Advanced Rebol Language System
>From the OSCAR name above, you might have guessed the proposal
is for those of us language buffs sufficiently intrigued by the
internal workings of REBOL is to develop our own REBOL Interpreter.
WHY ?
1. To further our understanding of REBOL's inner workings.
2. To experiment ourselves with various implementation features.
3. To provide a REBOL for use on DEBIAN & free software systems.
4. To ensure the protection of REBOL language from corporate control
or abuse or neglect, i.e. The AMIGA fiasco's / sad stories.
5. For the fun of it!.
Carl stated in the past on of the reasons REBOL would not be opened
sourced until much later would be to prevent fragmentation.
This would be the prime directive of OSCAR if it goes ahead,
All official user releases must look like REBOL, smell like REBOL &
for all intents & purposes mimic REBOL behaviour as best as possible.
This need not deter experimentation, if fact useful new development
features could be sent to REBOL.com for consideration & possible
inclusion in official REBOL releases, however that is much later
in the game.
Firstly those of us interested enough need to harness our knowledge
skills & expertise of compiled programming languages like ANSI C
or Modula-2 / Pascal or SCHEME etc to discuss & develop an interpreter
for a small subset of REBOL/Core, probably the natives!, datatypes!
& operators! from which everything else is built upon.
However I digress, those sort of discussions are for the OSCAR project
to decide, the purpose here is to stimulate opinion, enthusiasm, critique
& hopefully momentum for such a project.
Project 2 - REEMACS
REEMACS Rebol Extensible Environment MACroS
REEMACS Rebol Engineered EMACS
REEMACS Rebol Engineered Environment Makes Advanced Computing Simple
As the name suggests the intention here is to create an advanced extensible
editor & environment written entirely in REBOL built on a REBOL interpreter.
View GUI versions & Command versions could be developed later.
REEMACS would be an advanced editor & environment extensible with REBOL
functions, macros & scripts, in the spirit of Richard Stallman's GNU EMACS
but bettered by applying REBOL human-centric principals & features including
a more intuitive & easy to use interface whilst retaining all the power &
flexibility that REBOL provides.
In short REEMACS would be a state of the art Editor / Environment for the
21st Century including;
* Advanced Text Editing & Formatting
* File & Directory Control
* Diary & Calendaring
* Email & FTP
* Language Syntax Highlighting
* Documentation & Help
* Everything else not yet thought of.......
As above the intention here is to stimulate interest & discussion about
a REEMACS project and call to arms for those REBOL Coders looking to
show off their REBOL skills on a project that can harness & collate the
combined skills & scripts of the REBOL Community to provide a generally
useful REBOL Utility.
There is no reason for REEMACS not to collaborate with other on going
projects such as REBMAIL to produce a world class REBOL application.
So there you have it OSCAR & REEMACS, they are my suggestions, now
Iam looking for your responses.
I would be obliged if all comments & discussion could be kept to this
list & all replies sent to [list--rebol--com] and not to me personally.
All the best,
Mark Dickson
[2/27] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 21-Sep-2000 9:56
Mark,
I agree that REBOL is doing a great job, greater than great even. I also think
we should help ourselves as much as possible allowing REBOL to focus on thier
work. I think your REMACS idea deserves merit as well. But I do not think an
open source version of REBOL is healthy at this time.
Not only does it increase fragmentation in the language, already a minor issue,
yet so far necessary, it opens REBOL up to snooping from software competitors.
At REBOL's early stage this would be dangerous. For this reason I will not
contribute to this project and also will recommend others not to do so. :^(
Plus, who wants to program in C anyways, yuck!
--Ryan
PS: I dont know how, but I think they must be putting an addictive substance in
the language somewhere.
[edinburgh--veitchi--co--uk] wrote:
> REALLY DISCOVER THE POWER OF REBOL
> I have been learning, using & experimenting with REBOL for about
<<quoted lines omitted: 113>>
> All the best,
> Mark Dickson
--
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[3/27] from: edinburgh:veitchi at: 21-Sep-2000 19:26
Foreword:
Here's a private email I sent in response to Ryans comments
about my post to this list.
Ryan, I hope you don't mind me making this public,
Mark
******************* original e-mail********************
I agree with the points you made regards my post to the
Rebol user list.
However one minor point that I take issue with is that an
open source Rebol would somehow open up REBOL
to software competitors.
I don't think this is a valid point, Microsoft & other software
companies have the finance & the resources to implement
a lookalike of ANY software product. They can hire the
brains to do so or just buy out the said company.
Rebol at the high end is a Lisp/Scheme like interpreted language
built I believe on a Two Stack Forth like engine.
These are mature technologies and have been implemented
in various dialects & languages over the years.
There is nothing in the underlying technology that Microsoft
or any other capable language programmer could not
re-implement if they so wished, the fact that they haven't done so
either means they do not see REBOL as significant (a gross
under-estimate in my opinion ) or they have big sunk costs
& investment in existing technologies like Java, C++, Visual Basic,
Delphi etc.
REBOL's magnificence in my opinion comes from it's simplicity
& correctness of design. It is a human centric programming language
& a very powerful one at that.
However I believe that to protect our users interests from predatory
competitors like Microsoft an Open Source REBOL / OSCAR
released under the Gnu Public License - copyleft, would prevent
any malevolent force taking REBOL away from us at some future date.
I also think Carl & the Gang need as much help & support as they can get.
They will make their money from selling high end corporate
& professional REBOL products. Rebol/core is free and is stated
to always be available for free. So if it's already free then why not
totally free in the open source sense.
ANSI C "printf" and Pascal "Writeln" are compiled commands which
work almost identically to the REBOL 'prin & 'print words both of
which are Rebol natives! and almost certainly based on something
similar to either of the above C or Pascal code.
The Rebol community I feel would learn a great deal about REBOL
by re-implementing it in C or Pascal or Scheme etc, Brian, Gabriele
Elan etc from the list all have deep language & computing knowledge
& experience in various languages as well as having worked on
language implementations so the skills are there.
It is your choice as to whether to participate or not.
I hope you will reconsider & hope you will remember
I don't want to fragment REBOL or hurt Carl or the REBOL team
in anyway, I support & will continue to support REBOL.
I believe in Carl's design skills & technologies, he is a proven
master. I & others merely aspire to emulate such wizardry &
gain a deeper understanding in the process, improve our
skills etc.
Regards programming in C - I agree - Yuck!!!!
I would much rather write OSCAR in REBOL but until
and or if Carl ever writes a compiler for REBOL, then unfortunately
there is no choice but to get your hands dirty in a more
cumbersome language like C or Modula/Pascal etc.
We're on the same side.
Fellow Rebol friend,
Mark Dickson
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[4/27] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 21-Sep-2000 12:40
[edinburgh--veitchi--co--uk] wrote:
> Foreword:
>
> Here's a private email I sent in response to Ryans comments
> about my post to this list.
>
> Ryan, I hope you don't mind me making this public,
>
> Mark
No problem, my preference actually. Here is my rebuttal:
Does Coka-Cola handout thier recipe? Nope. Does Pepsi have the recipe to
Coka-Cola? I am sure they have it figured out. But if Coka-Cola handed out
thier recipe from day 1, do you think Coka-Cola would be what it is today?
Maybe, though maybe not.
Given the fact that REBOL has been around for 3 years, we could roughly
estimate it would take the same number of excellent programmers the same
amount of time to complete the task. This delay is the protection. When
(if) it becomes appearent to the larger companies that REBOL's business plan
is successful, they will look into doing such a thing themselves (monkey see,
monkey do). Recreating an open source implementation is like taking a test
with the answers on the chalkboard. In such instance, I would guess that a
REBOL competetor could be made within a year, quadruple the number of
programmers, within 6 months. 6 months and a good marketing campaign could
easily capture "first in mind" from REBOL, the chess equivelent of
check--with REBOL
likely bieng outnumbered.
Sure there are Coka-Cola fakes out there, but they're not the real thing.
First in mind is an important marketing law, especially so when dealing with
languages.
This is why I think we should let things play out a bit longer before showing
everyone how its done.
--Ryan
Veitchi Edinburgh wrote:
> I agree with the points you made regards my post to the
> Rebol user list.
<<quoted lines omitted: 55>>
> .
> please reply to [mark_dickson--edinburgh6--freeserve--co--uk]
--
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[5/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 21-Sep-2000 16:37
On 9/21/2000 at 12:40 PM [ryanc--iesco-dms--com] wrote:
> This is why I think we should let things play out a bit longer before
showing everyone how its done.
Python, PHP, MySQL are all wildly popular, and Open Source. No mammoth
marketing team has swept in and taken them over.
Your arguments might sound reasonable to suits who don't know any
better, but the software marketplace doesn't actually work that way.
In practice, very few Open Source projects ever splinter. The people
smart enough to make them splinter are smart enough to keep that from
happening. Things like Javascript have splintered badly, but that's
because they were not Open Source, and vendors implemented their own
closed source in different ways. All that happens is that people like
Elan, Gabrial, Lemir, and Joel don't waste time ruminating about how
REBOL is implemented. Rather, they can contribute working code to the
project. Carl would still control what goes into the kernal. But Carl
doesn't want that to happen, and so it won't. Pity, because it might
free up some of his developers to create real-life reference
applications, and then maybe more people would put REBOL to work.
-Ted.
[6/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 21-Sep-2000 16:58
On 9/21/2000 at 4:26 PM [edinburgh--veitchi--co--uk] wrote:
> The finite resources & corporate demands on REBOL TECHNOLOGIES inc.
are the biggest bottleneck to the future direction & speed of
development of REBOL, as a language & technology.
Personally, I believe the real bottleneck is REBOL Corporate's refusal
to provide an industry-standard support systems for developers. The
lack of a bug list and knowledge base is inexcusable and unrealistic.
Heck, there's not even a formal specification of the language. The
documentation is fair -- even good when Carl writes it himself. But for
ongong support, all that's provided is a entry-level mailing list with
a short-lived archive. The new Command Care script shipping with
/COMMAND looks like a step in the right direction -- but where's the
/VIEW version? There's a lot of glitz on REBOL.COM about Express, which
would be cool IF IT EXISTED!
Of coure this is probably why there are so few ready-to-run real-life
REBOL applications shipping today - what is there? Vanilla, News Site,
and Elan's DBMS. Otherwise, the example being set is that REBOL is a
fun toy for quick and dirty puzzles, and that's all anyone seems to
write. Even many of the samples are just underpowered clones of other
softwares. (Take SELMA for example.) And here we go again, let's write
another REBOL interpreter; let's write a EMAC's clone, let's write an
email client. Hey, we got those already, let's move on.
I know this seems harsh, but I do believe in REBOL, and I would like to
recommend it to my clients for paying work. But I'm having trouble
seeing the emporer's clothes.
My development schedule, including overtime, is booked through
November, but if I were going write something in REBOL, I'd start with
a Web site control panel, or an enterprise portal, especially ones that
looked great in a browser and fantastic in VIEW. Still new ground to
cover on those fronts.
-Ted.
[7/27] from: rchristiansen:pop:isdfa:sei-it at: 21-Sep-2000 16:03
It is a strange beast, indeed.
RT depends on developers to create applications to show that
REBOL is a viable alternative.
Meanwhile, developers of the open source persuasion see tractor
application development as RT's responsibility, feeling REBOL itself
could be maintained by the open source community.
This argument seems to crop up in relation to all sorts of products
nowadays. It seems "open source" as a marketing element is here to
stay. Somehow products that are "open source" have become
attractive to customers in the same way shampoos are attractive
when they have not been tested on laboratory animals.
Only time will tell whether or not open source software like operating
systems and programming languages will become the standard vs.
commercial, closed source options.
I tend to think open source operating systems and programming
languages WILL become the standard because of how we use them.
Like electricity, gasoline, etc., they are becoming resources which
need to be standardized. I see an inherent mistrust of closed source
products amongst many developers because a closed source
product can be taken away as quickly as it is given. It's kind of like
not wanting to commit to a relationship with someone who hides
things from you. This is how I perceive this behavior, at least.
-Ryan
[8/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 21-Sep-2000 17:38
On 9/21/2000 at 4:03 PM [RChristiansen--pop--isdfa--sei-it--com] wrote:
> I see an inherent mistrust of closed source products amongst many
developers because a closed source product can be taken away as quickly
as it is given. It's kind of like not wanting to commit to a
relationship with someone who hides things from you. This is how I
perceive this behavior, at least.
That's very true Ryan. Once a product sucessfully goes Open Source,
many of us believe that it is now here to stay. Many products which
have not gone Open Source (like Mini-SQL for example) die when the
developer loses interest, even when the product has a loyal following.
I also see the terms "standards-based" and "open source" becoming
strongly linked.
Many people in the industry have finally come to realize that the
development of a product is only the tip of the iceberg. The real
investment (Cost of Ownership) is with training, integration,
customization, and maintenance. Many people are much more willing to
make that investment when they know the source for the product cannot
be taken away.
/COMMAND is a good example. My business decision isn't about whether
the library costs $300 up front, it's about whether I want to pay
someone $300 a day to build something with it.
-Ted.
[9/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 21-Sep-2000 18:06
On 9/21/2000 at 4:03 PM [RChristiansen--pop--isdfa--sei-it--com] wrote:
>RT depends on developers to create applications to show that REBOL is
a viable alternative.
In real life, it's never been about which platform is better, it's
always been about which applications are better.
Java was ignored for years (ironically, the years when we needed it the
most), until Sun finally wrote a browser with it. That was the proof of
concept that pulled Java up by it's bootstraps. It's not enough to roll
out the barrel, you have tap the keg.
Express could easily do this for REBOL, if it ever ships. But something
like it should have been done already. The RT team has poured out
dozens of sample scripts demonstrating useful snippets, but what's
really need is actual working applications. Successful language vendors
have often bundled fully functional text editors and databases with
their packages, or worked closely with tool vendors who write "the rest
of the language."
>Meanwhile, developers of the open source persuasion see tractor
application development as RT's responsibility, feeling REBOL itself
could be maintained by the open source community.
With the proper support structure, this community could definately help
with the development of REBOL, and release some of the paid staff for
other work.
But I sincerely doubt that REBOL Corporate has the proper mindset to
make open source work for them. Heck, unlike everyone else in the
industry, open or closed, they can't bear to publish so much as a bug
list.
-Ted.
[10/27] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 21-Sep-2000 15:38
[news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
> On 9/21/2000 at 12:40 PM [ryanc--iesco-dms--com] wrote:
> > This is why I think we should let things play out a bit longer before
> showing everyone how its done.
>
> Python, PHP, MySQL are all wildly popular, and Open Source. No mammoth
> marketing team has swept in and taken them over.
And making REBOL open source would likely lend to its popularity as well.
But, as far as I know, Python and PHP are not businesses. Although, If I
remember correctly, MySQL is a business, free for non profitable use or
something. I would expect its biggest competitor to be PostgreSQL, which
is ironic to me. It would be interesting to know how the? You also make
me think of an interesting question, could making REBOL open source
actually scare away big business competition?
> Your arguments might sound reasonable to suits who don't know any
> better, but the software marketplace doesn't actually work that way.
<<quoted lines omitted: 10>>
> applications, and then maybe more people would put REBOL to work.
> -Ted.
I agree there are many benefits, but so far I see it being dangerous if
done before "first in mind" has been well achieved. Also, I remind you
investors scare away easily--No matter how nice the rocket, you still need
fuel to launch it.
Speaking about first in mind, REBOL could achieve this easier if they do
more to introduce themselves as an entirely new class of programming
languages (divide and conquer). This has had subtle mentions here and
there, but no phrase sticks in my head. I might mention something to that
effect on top every piece of company literature.
--Ryan
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[11/27] from: allen:rebolforces at: 22-Sep-2000 8:51
> Of coure this is probably why there are so few ready-to-run real-life
> REBOL applications shipping today - what is there? Vanilla, News Site,
> and Elan's DBMS. Otherwise, the example being set is that REBOL is a
> fun toy for quick and dirty puzzles, and that's all anyone seems to
> write.
Hi Ted,
You are starting to sound a little disheartened in your recents posts.. :-(
Since money is currently to be made in writting custom solutions in REBOL,
it is not surprising that many of the REBOL apps don't see the public light
of day. With the usual contract I.P. clauses and lack of source code hiding,
it would be foolish (and often illegal) for many of us to publish those apps
openly to the web.
;---
If something gives a company a competitive advantage, they try not to tell
their competitors about it.
;---
Now with /command and Ralph's forthcoming e-commerce book, REBOL for
server-side db work will be easier to pitch. I would expect to see growth in
this area over the next year (can we do ssl? though).
If we had the ability to compile code / or hide source in distributions, it
would help spur the development of 3rd party add-on industry and the off the
shelf apps too.
In terms of not having a knowlege base of known bugs & issues, I think that
with people paying for support contracts, a knowledge base will be something
RT will have to address/provide. It would be a cost effective mechanism to
reduce the support load.
Cheers,
Allen K
[12/27] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 21-Sep-2000 16:14
> And making REBOL open source would likely lend to its popularity as well.
> But, as far as I know, Python and PHP are not businesses. Although, If I
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> me think of an interesting question, could making REBOL open source
> actually scare away big business competition?
It would be interesting to know how the? Excuse me. What was going to say is
it would be interesting to know how the market place evolved.
--Ryan
[13/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 21-Sep-2000 19:56
On 9/21/2000 at 3:38 PM [ryanc--iesco-dms--com] <[ryanc--iesco-dms--com]>
wrote:
> Although, If I remember correctly, MySQL is a business, free for non
profitable use or something.
They were on the fence for a while, especially as to the NT version,
but it did go full open source this year.
> But, as far as I know, Python and PHP are not businesses.
Until today, when COMMAND shipped, neither was REBOL.
Though the point was if the theory of the opportunistic marketer were
valid, it would have happened already.
> You also make me think of an interesting question, could making REBOL
open source actually scare away big business competition?
Definately. But it's a moot point. REBOL couldn't handle open source.
> it would be interesting to know how the market place evolved
The glib answer would be: open source, survival of the fittest; closed
source, survival of the richest.
-Ted.
[14/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 21-Sep-2000 19:57
On 9/22/2000 at 8:51 AM [allen--rebolforces--com] wrote:
> You are starting to sound a little disheartened in your recents
posts.. :-(
Oh, I've always been a little cranky, just haven't been posting as
much. The sad part is I'm still saying the same things I said a year
ago. My concern is that people get so excited about REBOL as a
language, they overlook its basic needs as a competitive product. It
would be nice to see thoughtful, efficient design actually win for a
change.
> Now with /command and Ralph's forthcoming e-commerce book, REBOL for
server-side db work will be easier to pitch. I would expect to see
growth in this area over the next year (can we do ssl? though).
Actually, what first attracted me to REBOL was an article that
mentioned someone who was doing all their ecommerce applications in
REBOL. See relatively few posts about this sort of thing though.
Though, I think most of the people who would use REBOL for eCommerce
don't have access to an ODBC or Oracle database. I'd like to see the
marketing research on that decision.
> If we had the ability to compile code / or hide source in
distributions, it would help spur the development of 3rd party add-on
industry and the off the shelf apps too.
Maybe. But PHP and Perl don't have this, and apps are legion.
Meanwhile, Java does have this are apps are relatively sparse.
Realistically, I think the biggest difference is probably Apache Mod
support. The Java apps seem to be waxing with the solid progress they
are making with Apache support. So if /APACHE every ships ...
> Since money is currently to be made in writting custom solutions in
REBOL, it is not surprising that many of the REBOL apps don't see the
public light
Be interesting to at least see some of these listed on people's
resumes, or a developer's exchange on REBOL Web site. It's also
commonplace for a developers to write a general version of a custom
application, or to customize a general app, but we don't seem to see
much of that either.
-Ted.
[15/27] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 21-Sep-2000 18:57
> On 9/22/2000 at 8:51 AM [allen--rebolforces--com] wrote:
> > If we had the ability to compile code / or hide source in
<<quoted lines omitted: 3>>
> Maybe. But PHP and Perl don't have this, and apps are legion.
> Meanwhile, Java does have this are apps are relatively sparse.
PERL was created awhile before Java, and I would expect had "first in
mind" to many of us for many categories, CGI, script language, *n?x
programming, internet programming, and maybe even cross platform. Java
came in later in the game, successfully aquiring the cross platform
category, but too late and under equiped to gain popularity anywhere
else. Such as my father always says, "a day late and a dollar short."
Now Java has just recently overtook Visual BASIC as the most widely used
programming language in the world. I must attribute its success to many
factors, the primary of course being it "owns" cross platform, but
arguably the secondary factor is the fact its compilable. All that hype
did'nt hurt either.
--Ryan
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[16/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 21-Sep-2000 23:27
> Java came in later in the game, successfully aquiring the cross
platform category, but too late and under equiped to gain popularity
anywhere else. Such as my father always says, "a day late and a dollar
short."
Java was actually developed and available for many years before it
became popular. My point is that it became popular when Sun used to to
developed a working browser. And bang ... it took off. That's what
REBOL needs, a useful application that people can point to and say "it
works!"
>PERL was created awhile before Java, and I would expect had "first in
mind" to many of us for many categories,
Again, my point here is not being able to hide the source hasn't
stopped people from developing killer Perl applications.The fact that
Perl is ridiculous and ugly didn't stop them either. What started them
is that Larry began by writing useful, working applications, and people
followed his lead. In contrast, Carl began by writing very cool test
programs, and so that's been the REBOL status quo ever since.
A good example is the List Archiver at REBOL.ORG. It uses some very
cool technology, which I barely understand, to archive and index the
messages. Unfortunately, the script is quick and dirty, and difficult
to abstract into a toolkit or port to another site. Which is a pity,
since it could easily be used to archive any type of email, not just
the REBOL list.
-Ted.
[17/27] from: sharriff:aina:med-iq at: 22-Sep-2000 7:17
>My development schedule, including overtime, is booked through
>November, but if I were going write something in REBOL, I'd start with
>a Web site control panel, or an enterprise portal, especially ones that
>looked great in a browser and fantastic in VIEW. Still new ground to
>cover on those fronts.
>-Ted.
IŽll second to that Ted...
Sharriff Aina
med.iq information & quality in healthcare AG
Gutenbergstr. 42
41564 Kaarst
tel.: 02131-3669-0
fax: 02131-3669-599
www.med-iq.de
[18/27] from: jeff:rebol at: 21-Sep-2000 22:22
Howdy, Ted:
Isn't one of there an Open Source mantra about running
around spreading FUD? (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) ;-)
*grin*
-jeff
[19/27] from: kolla:nvg:ntnu:no at: 22-Sep-2000 12:44
On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 [ryanc--iesco-dms--com] wrote:
> And making REBOL open source would likely lend to its popularity as well.
> But, as far as I know, Python and PHP are not businesses.
They dont have to be. PHP and python programmer, as well as perl programmers,
make money on making applications with them. The same developers who code
PHP/Python/perl are the same people who create applications with them.
That's why it works so well.
-- kolla
[20/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 22-Sep-2000 9:01
On 9/21/2000 at 10:22 PM [jeff--rebol--net] wrote:
> Isn't one of there an Open Source mantra about running around
spreading FUD? (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) ;-)
I know you're kidding me Jeff, and that you and the others in the
trenches are doing your best, but, since the door's been opened, I
might mention that REBOL's tendency to pre-announce products has
created a lot of FUD around here. While /COMMAND was simmering no one
wanted to work on other DBMS connections (like say hooking up to MySQL
via TCP). Likewise with the pre-announcement /EXPRESS, independant
developer's aren't going to want to work on something like that either.
I'm sure that is not the intention, but it is the effect.
And, I don't think it's FUD to offer candid advice with specific
suggestions for change.
His Majesty's Loyal Advocate,
-Ted.
[21/27] from: joel:neely:fedex at: 22-Sep-2000 7:59
[news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
> All that happens is that people like Elan, Gabrial, Lemir, and Joel
> don't waste time ruminating about how REBOL is implemented.
>
ruminating
-- Wow! I though I was just guessin' ! ;-)
-jn-
[22/27] from: jeff:rebol at: 22-Sep-2000 7:04
Howdy, Ted:
> [re: FUD]..
>
> And, I don't think it's FUD to offer candid advice with
> specific suggestions for change.
Naw, my intention was not to rebuke your efforts toward
calling it as you see it. Just the feeling was a little
demoralizing and ominous the way it comes across on my side
of the screen--
> His Majesty's Loyal Advocate,
We are all the new Jedi knights of the computing world and
we must not turn to the darkside! As say Master Yoda: "Fear
leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to
suffering!!" :-) :-) ;-)
-jeff
[23/27] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 22-Sep-2000 9:57
I must agree your "tapping the keg" scenario was probably was a
considerable factor in the earlier years. I believe we all agree REBOL
could use a killer app too.
What is the next killer app? Don't know. Napster is the current. This
makes me think...
Gnutilla is currently wounded from growing pains, Napster's fate
questionable, and all other sorts of peer file sharing are gaining in
popularity. I also sense a high demand for collaborative work
environments. Combining the two, like that BeOS app mentioned a while ago,
is a strong mixture. I don't know if such an app is possible/feasible to
create with REBOL, but since it would run on so many platforms, its
guaranteed a smidgen of popularity. If released before Gnutilla is fixed,
the #2 position is possible. #2 position in peer file sharing would likely
carry over into #1 position in collaborative work environments.
Collaborative work environment
is something you can achieve, here I go
again, "first in mind."
Gnutilla's popularity I suspect is strongly attributable to it running on
Linux, being open source, and supporting any file. I suppose having Gnu in
the name helps allot too. Making ours run on Linux, open source, and any
file support are givens, but having Gnu in the name raises some questions.
Do you want to look like a copycat? Is their a more popular name?
Wars of attrition...
(AOL - everybody) is smaller than (anybody + AOL)
I am sure all of you know the story of the instant messaging wars. Such
attrition tactics are proven to level the playing field, and as we have
seen with greedy companies, level the battle field too. Being cross
network is a superior feature.
I am not recommending we do this yet, I would like to consider other
options before I make my decision. It may not even be a feasible to create
this program using REBOL, we may not have the resources to complete it
quickly enough, and their could be a better idea. Take in mind Gnutilla's
not the only competition either, at least 20 others. But, with the
Gnutilla network on its knees and Napster's uncertain future, this would be
a good time to step in.
Lets here some other ideas and punch some holes in this one.
--Ryan
[news--ted--husted--com] wrote:
> > Java came in later in the game, successfully aquiring the cross
> platform category, but too late and under equiped to gain popularity
<<quoted lines omitted: 20>>
> the REBOL list.
> -Ted.
--
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[24/27] from: jsc:dataheaven at: 22-Sep-2000 19:58
I plan to develop a collaborative work environment tool with REBOL.
There is nothing done yet, so that if some of you want to join me
please contact me.
Jochen Schmidt
[jsc--dataheaven--de]
Am Fre, 22 Sep 2000 schrieben Sie:
[25/27] from: ryanc:iesco-dms at: 22-Sep-2000 12:04
[kolla--nvg--ntnu--no] wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 [ryanc--iesco-dms--com] wrote:
> > And making REBOL open source would likely lend to its popularity as well.
<<quoted lines omitted: 4>>
> That's why it works so well.
> -- kolla
It works very well indeed, but my point is subtly askew. Essentially by your
logic Python and PHP are money making operations by those who use them, who are
often the same people who create them. REBOL is a money making operation for RT,
its investors, and hopefully its users. And yes, it is also a outlet for Carl
and other RT staff giving them a great sense of fullfillement in life.
Albeit, thier are strong arguments for open source REBOL, but I remind you that
my position is that it is a dangerous move at this time, and dangerous does not
does not mean it will turn out bad, it means it has the potential to turn out
bad.
To the best of my knowledge, it is relatively unproven business model. I am not
saying it would fail, and I could easily argue its success, but from a current
investors point of view, it is just too dangerous.
If RT is covered in the money area, and thier is evidence that open source would
scare away big business or have at least a nuetral effect, then I would say go
for it. Going open source would surely boost popularity. I just think in the
current tech money market thier is not alot going around, plus at REBOL's
youthful stage, combined with some uncertainty in the programming language of the
future, releasing source could be very dangerous. Its a one shot deal, and I
believe that its a risk that should'nt be attempted unless it became clear that
popularity was sagging. When REBOL becomes popular, or at least widely enough
known, releasing source could be done more safely. I know its strong temptation,
a quick fix to the popularity issue.
I suppose if RT had lots of money, it could release the source and use that as a
spring board for an add compaign to grab "first in mind" before any competition
could catch up. But, If they had lots of money they could just go with the add
campaign, topping it off with a source code release if needed. Or they could
just spend the money making better products?
--Ryan
Ryan Cole
Programmer Analyst
www.iesco-dms.com
707-468-5400
We are what we think. All that we are arises
with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make
the world. --Buddha
[26/27] from: news:ted:husted at: 22-Sep-2000 22:03
On 9/22/2000 at 7:58 PM [jsc--dataheaven--de] wrote:
> I plan to develop a collaborative work environment tool with REBOL.
There is nothing done yet, so that if some of you want to join me
please contact me.
I can't offer to do any coding right now, but here's a description of
my favorite collaborative dreamware.
--
In essence, this application would act like like dmoz.org hooked up to
hypertext articles, rather than just
links, with the same group editing features dmoz provides for just
links.
Objective
Collect, organize, and maintain a collection of hypertext documents via
a HTML browser or SMTP/POP3 email.
Audience
Knowledge workers connected by a network, already familiar with
Internet browsers, portals, and search engines.
Requirements - Knowledge Base
The knowledge base allows people to create and update articles. The
articles are submitted as plain text and converted to HTML. An advanced
version allows articles to be formatted according to a template and
include various CGI components.
Allow text articles and one standard image to be submitted by browser
or email. Track article title, ad-hoc and standard keywords, original
author, creation date, last editor, edit date, edit history
Save articles to HTML files
+ Title, meta keywords, link to author profile, edit history
+ Email comment form to author and editors
+ Back link
+ Convert HTML meta characters to macros (< >), et cetera
Parse saved articles into component fields for editing or indexing
Allow author and authorized editors to add target and anchor links to
article, when available
Create and update author profiles by browser or email
Allow new author registration and first article submission as an
unified transaction
Hold new submissions to queue pending approval by editor
Allow updates to article by original author or authorized editor
Grant editor rights to an author profile
Track articles authored or edited with each profile
Full-text search: Responsibility of Web site.
Organization by topic: Responsibility of Article binder.
Possible Refinements
Store articles in alternate format (database, XML / RDF ), and generate
HTML pages upon request
Maintain companion annotation/history pages linked to main article
+ May be enabled by template (infra)
Allow for submission of multiple images
Full-text/keyword search of articles
Plain-text formatting of simple HTML elements ("pidgin HTML")
*bold* - _underscore_ - ~italics~ - :hot zone: {target} (anchor)
bold - underscore - italics - hot zone
{{ A: [block] }} - no evaluation - fixed font
[heading]:1 {target} (anchor)
| col | col |
Create articles with various layouts or features based on templates.
The template would determine both the input form (by the browser) and
the display format (as an HTML document).
Knowledge Base | Author Profile
Job Postings | Resume | Employer profile / Classified ads
Link Directory / Article binder (hint)
Common CGI components (some may require registration with a cron
script)
+ Time/date stamp
+ Guest books | Link Lists | "Talk Back" replies
+ Email response forms | Confirmations
+ Email page to reader
+ Exams | Surveys (Rate it)
- - Optional real time tallies
+ Table of contents (from anchor page to target links)
+ + What's new index
+ Blue sky | Kitchen sink
- - Includes | Scheduled includes
- - Display or comment block
- - Variable substitutions
- - Hit Counters
- - File uploading / downloading
- - Shopping carts
- - Managed banners
- - Slide shows
Requirements - Article Binder / Link Directory
The article binder allows people to organize hypertext documents into a
hierarchy, and also generates alphabetical and chronological indexes.
When someone is authorized to edit a topic in the heirarchy, they are
also authorized to edit its sub-topics and the associated articles. An
advanced version also provides for other features to be associated with
topics in the hierarchy, including email, remote updates, and secure
viewing of topics or articles. An important feature is that articles
can be associated with more than one topic in the hierarchy.
Index articles into a hierarchy, with headings and sub-headings
Allow articles to appear under more than one heading or sub-heading
Authorize editors by heading and sub-heading, with rights for a heading
descending to its sub-headings
Create hyperlinked heading index in HTML
+ Top-level headings / Heading and sub-headings for each top-level
Create hyperlinked alphabetical index to articles titles in HTML
Create hyperlinked author index to articles in HTML, with public
portion of author's profile
Possible Refinements
Email new articles to list of subscribers by heading, or heading and
all sub-headings
+ Articles only; Articles and Replies.
+ Viewer-only registration / email address
Route replies to author and editor, and (optionally) other subscribers
Smart update of remote Web site from local machine
+ May disallow default updates by Internet mail or browser
Allow for updates to mirror sites (complete hierarchy or selected
branches)
Merge and delete articles between binders
Secure (members-only) headings or articles
Links to off-site articles
+ Meta-link option to allow update of URL and/or description for entire
hierarchy
+ Or, URL search and replace?
Constraints
Must be cross-platform
+ Available to any client platform with a HTML 3.2 or later browser
+ Run through any popular HTTPD CGI - Apache, IIS, et cetera.
-Ted.
[27/27] from: mailinglists:post at: 24-Sep-2000 19:07
Hello,
I'm not much of a programmer, but I've been following Rebol since it was
Lava, and I like the direction it (or RT, or Carl) is taking us.
Currently I'm enjoying Elan's book very much (great writing style,
Elan!), and even though I haven't yet found my a good project for Rebol,
I did manage to whip up a CGI-driven Instant Messenger (sorry folks,
it's dead now =).
I agree with Elan, that Rebol and RT will take us to new directions,
silly as it may sound, I had the chance to play around with a Casio
e-105 running WinCE. It holds great promise for the future, even though
it's very limited right now, these "intelligent" machines will become
very important (excuse the naive tone), and I certainly think embedded
is the future. Even though Rebol is not small enough for embedded now
(it needs an OS), remember what embedded meant ten years ago? Wrist
watches have more RAM nowadays! ;o)
So where is Rebol taking us today? Probably glue highway, for now at
least. But what about tomorrow? Peer-to-peer, wireless, embedded? Who
knows? (If you do, send me an email! ;o)
I guess what I'm trying to say is: Carl won't f*ck something up in four
years that took him 20 years to develop. Don't forget the enthousiasm
you have for Rebol, couldn't possibly compare for Carl's... =)
Good luck to all,
Rachid
Notes
- Quoted lines have been omitted from some messages.
View the message alone to see the lines that have been omitted