free REBOL?
[1/14] from: mh9831:comcast at: 1-Aug-2003 13:51
I know there has occasionally been discussions for or against REBOL being open
source. I think RT's logic makes sense for REBOL not being open source. But
how about the runtime and sdk being free? I mean with all the capabilities,
rather than the free version missing sound and shell access and library access?
I don't think Java or Python would be as popular as they are today if developers
had to pay to use all of their features. Right now with REBOL, if you use any
of these 'extra' features, you're forced with the decision to either purchase
encap so that your program can be used by anyone without them having to buy
REBOL, or making anyone who wants to use your program buy their own REBOL license.
Any chance that things such as View/Pro might become free, similar to the Java
sdk/runtime? Is RT making that much money off of these licenses? It seems
logical that more people might be inclined to use REBOL if they didn't have to
pay to use all the features, and more REBOL developers would be good for RT. I
know I'd never suggest my company use REBOL because I know I can accomplish the
same things with python, ruby or Java for free, even though I like using REBOL.
And I certainly wouldn't consider it for a commercial project if faced with the
choice of giving RT a percentage of my profits or just writing it in another
language and keeping all the profits myself.
Sorry if this has been brought up before. I was just curious.
mike
[2/14] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 1-Aug-2003 10:32
Hi Mike,
This does come up periodically, but I think it's good for RT to hear
what each of us wants; a lot of people agree with your view.
-- Gregg
[3/14] from: rebol::techscribe::com at: 1-Aug-2003 9:01
Hi Mike.
You wrote:
> I know I'd never suggest my company use REBOL
> because I know I can accomplish the same things
> with python, ruby or Java for free, even though I like
> using REBOL.
1. Why do you like REBOL? In my mind REBOL is superior to the languages
you list, because it makes me by far more productive. I can produce
results much faster and more easily maintain existing solutions using
REBOL. My increased productivity translates into significant savings
for the company I'm working for. The $$ they pay me generate more
results for them, therefore the per-result-cost is lower.
Since when do companies prefer to spend more money on labor, rather then
invest in tools that lead to a higher degree of productivity? No
business entity I know of relies on the existence of free tools, in
order to be successful. Everyone understands that superior technology
has a higher price that is rewarded by improved results and increased
savings over time, i.e. lower cost-per-unit.
In short, IMHO you are not doing your company any favors, by assuming
that the cost (free vs. commercial) is the most important criteria for
choosing the appropriate tool for a job. This may be true for the
impoverished hobbyist, who'll make do with substandard tools, since he
can't afford anything better, and does not have to deliver commercial
quality results within a set deadline, but certainly not in a
professional/commercial environment, where money is meant to be spent,
invested, used as a tool to improve productivity, the ability to compete
on the market place, and the ability to optimally satisfy the needs of
critical customsers, who want to spend as little as possible in return
for as much as possible. Here, in the commercial environment, money is
not intended to be saved and hidden away under the mattress and
stretched to last as long as possible, here money is a means, a tool for
accomplishing these commercial goals. If REBOL can improve the company's
ability to accomplish these goals faster, and with less payroll costs,
then REBOL is worth every penny of its price to your company.
> And I certainly wouldn't consider it for a commercial
> project if faced with the choice of giving RT a percentage
> of my profits or just writing it in another
>language and keeping all the profits myself.
2. Commercial project? You mean you expect to get paid for your work?
Guess what, so do others, such as RT. Share the wealth!
The same arguments that I used above apply here as well. If you are
going to make your choices based on pricing only, and choose inferior
tools because they cost less, then you are reducing your ability to
deliver the commercial project, and increasing the labor cost of
production. You will be spending this "saved" money one way or another.
Either it'll go to your landlord, grocery store, energy company, and so
on, because the additional time it will take you to complete your
commercial project will force you to spend more money on your
livelihood, until the commercial product is finally completed, and
begins to pay you back. From a false "selfish" point of view (I want to
spend my money on myself, and not pay others) this may sound perfectly
acceptable. But really it is not even sound logic in terms of
selfishness. A healthier selfishness, that incidentally is also more
consistent with a sound business logic, is the selfishness that says, if
I can accomplish my commercial goal more easily, faster, then I will see
the rewards out of it faster.
RT's flagship product - Command/SDK - sells for $448 (US) (see
http://www.rebol.com/purchase.html). How long can you live on $448, and
how much more time will it take you to complete your commercial product
using a different scripting language? If the additional time it will
take you to complete the same feature set in one of the free languages,
is more than the time you are able to survive on these $448, then you
are wasting money. Consider also, that Command/SDK enables you to
complete any number of commercial products, and therefore you should
really assume only a fraction of the cost of Command/SDK per commercial
project.
Finally, I hope that your observation that Java, Python, and Ruby are
popular because they are free is not quite precise. If indeed that
would be the only nice thing you can see about the trio, then yikes!
(Are you saying, "admittedly they're garbage, but - hey - their free"?).
The great thing about Capitalism is that it harnesses selfishness as an
engine for compassion.
Take Care,
Elan
[mh9831--comcast--net] wrote:
[4/14] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 1-Aug-2003 12:32
> 1. Why do you like REBOL? In my mind REBOL is superior to the
> languages
> you list, because it makes me by far more productive. I can produce
> results much faster and more easily maintain existing solutions using
> REBOL. My increased productivity translates into significant savings
> for the company I'm working for.
for rebol/pro
30$/hour salary = three hours worth of time to your company.
if you can code twice as fast (this is my experiece so far) then you've paid it back
in one day!
this is simple maths.
I bought a license for my own personnal useage and was able to deliver 80 seconds worth
of broadcast quality 3d animation in three weeks because I was able to code a render
farm in 8 hours and a complete production shot tracker/editor in about 16 hours.
together, these tools would typically save me one hour of manual work per day.
times 18 days. if you calculate it I was even, but then when the week or two of approvals
came along and I had to redo one shot nine times before it was accepted, the tool would
save me about 2 hours per day and many possible problems where alleviated (which translates
in to about 2 days of accumulated lost time worths of problems).
If you tabulate it all, I saved at a very minimum 4 days in time total.
32 hours * 30$/hours = 960$ saving
minus 75$
I still saved 895$ worth of my life in time. that means I was able to work on steel
(actually the production tracker is my first steel test) and see my wife and kids for
5 days, which I would have lost had I not spent the 75$..
I think I was a winner.
now realize that I have about one project per season... and it really starts making sense.
I currently do not need sdk, although It sometimes would be usefull. but If I start
developing commercial apps for others, you bet I'll spend the dough.
my 0.02$
-MAx
[5/14] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 1-Aug-2003 12:53
hi,
I do not know how the bills are being paid by RT but I'm not sure they are selling rebol/pro
75$ just because rebol sounds cool. I think they have bills to pay and they have to
get money somewhere and the pro package is enticing enough so that some of us spent part
of one paycheck to get it, without ruinning ourselves.
the problem is more like how do we get rebol to get industry acceptance, which would
permit RT to either:
-reduce the price of /pro, because it gets enough orders that its actually making profits
and lowering the price will entice new users.
-make enough money with IOS to make everything else free.
that takes a while.
It would be nice if they could partner with a large vendor, so that it gains support
from a large group of users. (like whatever happened to the morpheus deal?).
for example, softimage uses VB for its 3d scripting... I've heard softimage can't even
write a VB tutorial, because they don't have the rights to do so, you are thrown to a
MS VB site when you press on VB help!
If rebol was integrated as a scripting tool for third-party apps, it truely would be
powerfull, and it would allow a broad range of visibility with a wide range of users,
which could help rebol gain more stability.
-max
-----------
meteor Studios, T.D.
-----------
Never Argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with
experience
[6/14] from: Rebolinth::nodep::dds::nl at: 24-Dec-2003 22:29
Quoting [mh9831--comcast--net]:
Hello mh9831,
If there would be a Compagny called "OpenSource" and they would pay
me $ 500.000 a year for programming...i could think about it :-)
(R)egards,
Norman.
[7/14] from: mh9831:comcast at: 1-Aug-2003 17:44
Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to provoke any ire here. I was just wondering
about it.
I was under the impression that a percentage of the profits from selling a
commerical application written in rebol and encapped go back to RT. I thought I
read somewhere, but I could be misinformed.
Anyway, sorry if that was a sensitive topic. I wasn't harping on RT or REBOL,
and I don't intend to suggest RT has no right to make money. I think it comes
down to how much of their profits are tied to selling View/Pro versus how many
more developers they might potentially get if it were free. I don't know that
answer, that's why I wrote my original email.
mike
[8/14] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 1-Aug-2003 12:26
Hi Mike,
mcn> Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to provoke any ire here. I was just wondering
mcn> about it.
No problem. This comes up from time to time and people have strong
feelings on both sides. Please don't hesitate to express your opinions
here. Even the heated discussions never get *too* hot :) and, as I
said, it's good for RT to know how we all feel.
You're not alone in your thinking on this, though I'm with Max and
Elan myself. We all have different backgrounds and viewpoints. What we
have in common is that we all like REBOL and want it to succeed.
mcn> I was under the impression that a percentage of the profits from selling a
mcn> commerical application written in rebol and encapped go back to RT. I thought I
mcn> read somewhere, but I could be misinformed.
That's correct. I'm not a big fan of royalties myself, but REBOL is so
insanely great (IMHO) that I--even with my background, where it would
have been a deal-breaker--will not begrudge them one red cent.
For someone like a shareware author, or small-time vendor, the royalty
system can work better than paying a large sum up front, whether you
end up selling any product or not. This way, you pay less, and if you
end up making lots of money, you might just raise your price a little
to cover the royalty (if you want).
For some folks, the principle is still a deal breaker. Even a .1%
royalty wouldn't work for them, and that's OK. For me, I'm OK with it,
and if I had an issue, I'd talk to RT to see what I could work out
with them.
mcn> Anyway, sorry if that was a sensitive topic. I wasn't harping on RT or REBOL,
mcn> and I don't intend to suggest RT has no right to make money. I think it comes
mcn> down to how much of their profits are tied to selling View/Pro versus how many
mcn> more developers they might potentially get if it were free. I don't know that
mcn> answer, that's why I wrote my original email.
Again, we all want the same thing in the end, and RT *is* opening up
more and more features in the free versions. It's all a balancing act
and, even though my view is different than yours, I appreciate your
input. If there are things keeping *anyone* from using REBOL, we need
to know what they are.
-- Gregg
[9/14] from: maximo:meteorstudios at: 1-Aug-2003 14:57
yes we all forget that rebol is two different things
1- A suberb language platform, which IS free.
2- A commercial software developper, which has to stay alive.
Its hard to have both at the same time. Like greg said it a hard balancing act.
The problem is that everything (like employees, and marketing) costs money and word of
mouth is not enough when you have behemoths like microsoft which probably loose more
money per year in stolen pen and paper by employes than your total net worth and total
sales figure for your last 5 years...
You want to attract people, but can't cut in research $$$.
I actually wish rebol where free, but I understand that they have to eat and if rebol
where open source, then they couldn't keep the high-end stuff private, because anyone
could turn around and rip it off.
all in all a good discussion, no one's angry :-)
ciao!
-max
-----------
meteor Studios, T.D.
-----------
Never Argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with
experience
[10/14] from: rebol:techscribe at: 1-Aug-2003 12:05
Hi Gregg.
Been away for a while. You must be referring to the sdk license:
Programs created by this product cannot be sold, bundled, or
distributed as part of any product without a separate commercial
distribution license from REBOL Technologies.
(see
http://www.rebol.com/docs/sdk/intro.html#sect0.2.).
As I recall there used to be a "unlimited" option for the old /runtime
version (that I purchased at the time.) I would assume that the
unlimited
license is the equivalent of an outright purchase. Has that
changed? Or does the "separate commercial distribution license" include
an unlimited license option?
;- elan
Gregg Irwin wrote:
[11/14] from: rebol:techscribe at: 1-Aug-2003 12:29
Hi Mike.
I don't think that you have provoked any ire whatsoever and - as far as
I'm concerned - you have no reason to apologize.. I have spent a number
of years mulling over this topic, and - without getting into details - I
think the view you present is perfectly leigitimate. There are scenarios
in which what you say makes perfectly sense. Other scenarios do not lend
themselves to this kind of approach. See the mixed model, for instance,
that is used for Tcl. I also feel that there are some important
questions that you should be aware of, and that are just as legitimate.
Anyway, I don't see that RT would stand to gain by giving away their
more feature-rich software for free. Nor do I think that I would gain
by them doing so, because - unless they found some generous sponsor to
make it lucrative for them to continue to improve and enrich REBOL -,
they would have to eventually reduce their support for REBOL and none of
us are served if that happens. If RT is to be successful, then their
efforts to provide a superior development tool, combined with
my/your/other REBOL scripters additional efforts to package RT's
technology as some product that targets the market of technology
consumers, must generate a sufficiently large income stream to support
all participating contributors, namely us, the REBOL scripters, and the
RT team as well.
I think the future of REBOL is of interest to all of us, and it is
useful that we raise this kind of topic on the mailing list. We simply
have to keep in mind that REBOL is not only a scripting language and
interpreter, it is also a team of people that - like all of us - need to
see their efforts rewarded financially, and - as their clients - they
depend on us to make that happen.
I am certain that RT will appreciate any and all bright ideas that will
help them generate a stronger income stream. Giving their software away
for free may - perhaps - not be that bright idea ... ;-) .
Take Care,
;- elan
[mh9831--comcast--net] wrote:
[12/14] from: greggirwin:mindspring at: 1-Aug-2003 13:56
Hi Elan,
E> Been away for a while. You must be referring to the sdk license:
E> "Programs created by this product cannot be sold, bundled, or
E> distributed as part of any product without a separate commercial
E> distribution license from REBOL Technologies." (see
E> http://www.rebol.com/docs/sdk/intro.html#sect0.2.).
Pre-SDK, the Encap tool required the royalty agreement as well, btu
yes.
E> As I recall there used to be a "unlimited" option for the old /runtime
E> version (that I purchased at the time.) I would assume that the
E> "unlimited" license is the equivalent of an outright purchase. Has that
E> changed? Or does the "separate commercial distribution license" include
E> an unlimited license option?
For non-encapped scripts, I think you can still distribute the free
REBOL products with your script, but that rules out pro features. I'm
not sure what you have. It must have been before my REBOL time. :)
-- Gregg
[13/14] from: mmastroianni:lepcorp at: 1-Aug-2003 17:25
Hi all,
On the topic of REBOL's (and by
extension RT's) success: how many
people in the REBOL community do
you think would pay significant
and reasonable dollars to get
training at a variety of levels,
i.e., basic, intermediate,
advanced?
I would use REBOL *far* more in
many projects if I had a structured
training course w/ access to a
talented instructor; many projects
in my company would be better
served using REBOL if we had more
time to explore it and increase
our proficiency. In fact, we did an
ad hoc search some months ago that
did identify some talented, professional
folks that employ REBOL productively,
and were willing to give us a 1/2
day training session -- so we flew two
of us there and it was very much worth the
effort and cost.
If you can show businesses the substantial
benefits that REBOL can deliver, and give
them the path to become productive in
a reasonable time for reasonable cost,
REBOL adoption will increase dramatically,
I believe.
It happens all the time -- all you have
to do is talk to people who pay $$ to
upgrade the skills of their technical
staffs and you'll hear the same tune
again and again -- frequent, effective training
enhances skill, enthusiasm, and innovation--and
helps guard against the "if all you have is a
hammer, every problem looks like a nail" syndrome.
(Of course plenty of training $$ are wasted
as well if one is not careful...)
Do you think folks would respond to a REBOL
training program, or even certification?
Mike
[14/14] from: petr:krenzelok:trz:cz at: 4-Aug-2003 12:33
Hello Elan and all,
sorry if I don't match the discussed topic precisely - I was away for
some two weeks from all rebol happenings, but I will try to provide
another pov. I have to say that your post is very educated and balanced
and my intention will not be to say - hey, you are wrong here or there,
but rather to ask questions ... kind of passing another arguments into
the game ...
Elan wrote:
> Hi Mike.
> You wrote:
<<quoted lines omitted: 31>>
> with less payroll costs, then REBOL is worth every penny of its price
> to your company.
I think there are several levels mixed here. I think that with rebol, we
- developers (but also RT) is still walking in circle and we can't get
past the circle:
1) Large companies - I work for one. There is already the list of tools
for programming set. It is very difficult to introduce new ones. Let's
face it - IT manager does not care about the tools - he/she just wants
things to safely work ... and work the cheapest way it can be. So how
does rebol technology get itself into the company? I think there is
nearly NO chance for it to happen from the management pov. Rebol is not
known, even amongst programmers, not to mention IT managers. So the only
chance is some programmer/employee, who really likes Rebol and starts
writing some small helpfull scripts in the company. Even if Rebol is
free for basic scripting, it still brings a risk and IT managers will
try to kill any such initiative - and why? Because me - the programmer
trying to introduce rebol to the company environment can get hit by car
and noone else will be able to fix my scripts anymore! I know it because
I faced it with our VO (Visual Objects) project, where the rest of the
company used Delphi.
Now let's say I have some influence on IT managers and they will listen
to what I say. I am in such position, but to be fair, I am scared to
suggest rebol - and why? Because they will ask me questions like
- where can we buy books about rebol?
- where is enough web resources, docs?
- training courses?
- rebol success stories?
- rebol roadmap?
- known bugs database?
- RT technical support?
- ... and finally - how many ppl uses it?
Should I tell them 8 ppl in Czech Republic, 5 in Italy and maybe 30 in
france? IT managers really tend to be realistic (or let's better say
scared
) of new, unproven things and will regard rebol as a hazard game
for the IT department.
Let's even supposed I will be succesfull and some manager will say - OK
- then I will probably face another problem even Steve Shireman
described - programmers are already using some scripting environment
anyway, being it python, ruby, curl, php and they will feel you try to
push them to use rebol, will provide IT managers with SWOT analysis of
why tool XY is better than Rebol is etc. And you know what? - It all
will be negative to rebol - ah, you can't even start externall app in
free version? What? Just to access mySQL we whould pay for /Command etc
kind of nonsense, which will lead to feature to feature comparisons and
suddenly you will find yourself in the hostile environemnts ...
2) hobbyists - kind of folks like web scripters etc. I had quite few
friends who were interested in rebol. But quite frankly, mySQL as part
of Command was one of RT's mistakes. They just laughed where I told them
there is no apache module, no ability to access at least mySQL - for
free. Yes, for free - because that is how those ppl start - from one
project at a time, small websystems and then - they grow. Those who
don't understand, that it is like spiral effect and think only in
narrow-minded $$ fashion should not do marketing. Because - just in my
case - I lost at least 10 potential rebol users. You may say - well,
they wanted everything for free, but that is EXACTLY wrong pov I am
talking about. Those ppl run some websites here or they, they grow,
employ new ppl, but all happens without Rebol. If they would have had
rebol at hand back at that time, they would be using rebol even more,
they would spread it, another ppl joining their projects would be
influenced etc etc. - can you see the tree/spiral of potential users,
who, in a long term, would bring RT and rebol much more money? It all
was blocked with /Command 250USD pricing - basic features which should
never be charged for were not identified. What you are offering now is
how to cure situation which should be avoided in the first place long
time ago.
I am one of those who paid for /Pro, our company bought /Command and
upgraded to /Command SDK for two platforms and I also hope I will bring
RT another sales - just to prevent potential reactions that I am the one
who suggest everything to be for free.
I think that the problem rebol faces nowadays is - how to spread it even
more. Some folks here even surprised me with opinions like - VB was cool
untill it was masivelly accepted, but well - in my opinion, we didn't
reach critical mass acceptance for current situation at least to be
vital. And results we have to face:
RT is rather slow for commercial accpetance and I will once again name-
- not enough manpower
- no clear and public defined roadmap
- no known bug public database
- sometimes non existant tech support
- we can't be sure when/how RT decides to implement eventually needed
feature XY
That's for RT part - in some areas we can help ... if we can find enough
manpower ourselves.
So - can't you see us still running in circle? I can. New features are
only slowly implemented if even, it all smells like stagnation from
external pov (pov of ppl who don't use rebol yet but follow it from time
to time - no significant technology changes for 2 years), not enough
customers to pay RT, so RT can't employee another ppl to implement
requested features and take technology further ... still the same circle ...
The question is - how to escape it?
Do I know the answer? I don't know - my proposition was -
- the roadmap (goals, heh, Gregg? :-) - Carl should define areas in
which we could help, set some coordinators - BUT - he would HAVE to be
available at least from time to time - not like with VID projects where
we reached some decision points and were not able to get some questions
asnwered for 2 months. Maybe RT could even accept few skilled community
members to participate on technology (C level) development itself. Once
roadmap is defined, we should try to get there - fullfill the goals. I
would think in following areas:
- where do we want to see rebol? As for me - Win, Linux, maybe one or
two Unices, Mac and mainly - mobile devices .... if rebol is too
resource hungry, let's internally modularize even more
- rebol technology developments - announced plug-ins, async networking
- product redefinition - especially /Command and /Pro - kill pro, free
library and shell, remove mySQL and Oracle from kernel - it does NOT
belong there. Improve certificates handling in Command, add fast async
engine to Command (or all products - kinf of Doc's proposed uniserve) -
simply - make the framework stronger!
- VID group
- docs group
- and finally - IOS group
Cheers,
-pekr-
Notes
- Quoted lines have been omitted from some messages.
View the message alone to see the lines that have been omitted